I would like to better Understand Leadpipe Science

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Lovevixen555,
    I guess you measure differently than I do. I can't even find 2 different model Bach trumpets that measure to within .001 of one another.

    I hate to burst the bubble, but most leadpipe design IS trial and error. All of the numbers including bore size are meaningless when trying to predict behaviour. The only thing an OVERALL larger bore has is slightly more volume of air in the horn. It says nothing about blow or sound. When players are told that they need large bore instruments, they look for them. If the expectation is that a large bore trumpet has a dark sound, then the other parameters are adjusted to get that. The awake player knows that there are large bore screamers and medium bore dark sounding horns - they just don't talk about it as the immature get on their case.

    There is also no "ideal comprimise". 90% of the players don't have the chops to really experience the difference, so perception is more important than specifications. The myth of the perfect horn for the way one plays assumes that that person has enough consistency to match the inert piece of brass. The truth is that most players chops are all over the place, as well as not even really knowing how they sound to the audience.
    Hardware is NEVER the answer. The sooner that message hits home, the sooner the player will do what is necessary!
     
  2. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    It sounds like you're measuring the outside diameter of trumpet components, which won't tell you anything useful about inside measurements. Different manufacturers use different gauge tubing, and the leadpipe manufacturing process results in thinner tubing walls at the big end and thicker walls at the small end anyway.

    The brass instrument makers of previous decades and centuries did almost all the trial-and-error design work for us. Almost any imaginable design was tried, and the successful designs were copied and have survived to today.
     
  3. RGood

    RGood Piano User

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    Check out the webpage for the Pilzuk pipe - has some interesting info:

    Pilczuk Pipes
     
  4. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Well I am useing an SAE caliper set. Seeing how I had 3 years of tool and die training in H.S., 3 year's of machine drawing and drafting in H.S. and 3 years of Automotive Aprenticeship in Germany I can assure you I know how to measure and use diagnostic equipment. That is not even counting my college Aviation Technology and Applied Science degree or my machine drawing and drafting experince in college or the 5 year's I worked for General Motor's doing Forensic Failure Analysis work. My tools had to be calibrated regularly by a state certified Weight and Mean's lab. So my point is that I know I can measure. Plus your Bach Strad's are not each made by hand. Their is no guy named Hans in the corner working with a group of elv's pounding out the brass. They buy bulk tubeing from industry suppliers put it on a mandrel of their choice and then use either air power or hydralic power to shape the brass pipe to the mandrel. So as long as all your Bach's are wearing the same # leadpipe they would by default have to be almost identical. The fact that Bach's are mass produced and made to a specific design is what allows all these aftermarket companies to manufacture their own leadpipes, buttons, cap's, stem's and tuneing slides to fit the Bach Strad's with out the need for hand fitting. So if your Bach Strad's are not comeing out close then they are probably wearing different leadpipes ie #5,#25 etc......Each leadpipe is going to have a different rate of taper but the big end has to end up the same or it would not fit in the tuneing slide sleeve? Even the small end would have to be close so that it would mate nicely withthe reciver you can only use so much solder to make up the difference their is a limit. The rate of taper would be the bigest difference. So because they are mass produced some critical dimensions must be held the same like the diamter of the big end. So I would go back and remeasure. Now if you where talking about student horn's I could see the lacquer being a bit thick and sqewing the results a bit but surely your Bach Strad's are not wearing lacquer that is thicker then the metal it is applied to??? It could also be measureing error their are all kinds of things on o trumpet that can get inthe way of getting a good measurement. I had to take two or three tries on some of them because of all the little things that where inthe way.

    As it turns out I have got a Pilczuk Leadpipe on the way. I got it off ebay cheap $45. I have the OEM Holton leadpip and reciver sitting in the plastic bag in front of my keyboard for my sons Holton. I have a Getzen 300 leadpipe sitting around that I am going to replace. I could salvage the Getzen leadpipe more then likely but the braces are bent and the bell is damaged so I am just going to toss the leadpipe,braces and bell. I am thinking about putting a Bach Strad bell on it just to drive people nut's trying to figure out what type of Bach it is!!!LOL I am thinking about adding a brace to the tuneing slide and on the oposite side as well just to make it look more Bach like from a distance!LOL A screw adjustable slide stop for the third valve and first valve saddle and it will be a Bach Clone. Once I have everything on it I am going to silver plate it and put some caps top and bottom and buttons from Picket Brass so the vavle case does not look like Getzen. I am thinking about putting a Stage One leadpipe on my Reynolds as I think they look sexy and sleek. The Pilczuk has an slightly odd appearance because it has those 12 steeped chamber's. I do like though that the reciever is built in that is one less thing to have to monkey with.
     
  5. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    Solder isn't for filling gaps. A well built instrument should have metal to metal contact. Solder is just the glue that holds the metal together. If there are gaps between braces then it will be difficult to solder because of how it flows.

    Why would you make a Bach copy if you hate Bach's so much.
     
  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Oh just to push peoples button's. No seriously I have access to some really nice Bach Bells for a cheap price. In fact the price is really too good to say no too. The other bells the guy has are far more expensive as in $50-$250 dollars more then the Bach Bells. I do not hate Bach's in fact I think they are great sounding instrument's I just am not a fan of mass hype. Their are plenty of other instruments on the market that sound just as good if not better. I also do not like snobish people that only respect a given "name or brand" reguardless of if it deserves the reputation it has or not based on it's own merit. In fact I explained that before. I like the sound of the Bach Strad's but I do not think they are anything like their Origanal built by Bach prior to him selling the company and them moveing it and fireing allt he Union skilled tradesman. People hype them up like each one is hand crafted by elves and skilled trades man but really they are built much like all your other big name brand professional grade trumpet's. Their is no romance and no magic in the name. Hence the reason so many other companies are comeing out with products that are it's equal or better.

    The other reason is that this model Getzen already looks like a Bach in how it's metal is formed. The basic outline of the instruments is very Bach like in it's diemensions and shape. All it needs cosmeticly to look right is what I mentioned. 1st valve saddle, threaded 3rd slide stop, two braces and a Bach bell. Seeing how it neds a leadpipe and bell anyway's and the price is right???? I actualy was not going to go that wrote since I really did not want a Bach like clone until I read the material from Smith and Martin I think it was. I was going to go with a copper bell until I read their research that said bore profile and not bell material is what is responceable for the sound of a trumpet. Since I already know I like the sound of the Bach trumpet and the price is right I might as well go for it. If I am going to put a Bach bell on it I might as well make it look a bit more Bach like as well so it will blend in so to speak.

    In the end all I want is a nice sounding trumpet that looks nice and is fuly functional. By going with a Bach bell instead of a copper or bronze bell I will save $125-$200 on the price of the bell alone. When you are trying to see how little you can spend and still make a really good sounding trumpet that is money that can be used for other things like the leadpipe. I might use a Pilczuk leadpipe I recently ran across for $45 instead of the normal $150-$220 that these sell for. Ihad not planed on putting one on this project trumpet but as fate would have it the price is right.

    As to the solder issues the small end of my OEM Holton leadpipe is .393 but the small end of the OEM Holton reciever .400 so something has to float those parts and tie them together and that would be solder. My point above was that by default their is no way his Bach Strad's are wearing the same leadpipes and are not close in diemension. He makes it sound like they are all completly different like each one is hand made by the Music God's in a furnace deep within middle earth and that their is no way the parts are close in dimension. Common sense tells that in order for everyone and their Mom to make part's for the Bach Strad they have to be almost indentical in critical area's in order for the parts to be easily installed.:-)
     
  7. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Since my lathe is 3 hours and 30 minutes away from where I know live I am considering looking up a friend from college. He owns a shop that makes robots for the auto industry and other manufactureing interests as well. I am thinking about giveing leadpipe makeing a try. Out of all the part's to try and make the first time out it is the easiest one to give a try. I am thinking about takeing a piece of brass, bronze or copper bar stock and turning myself a large thick walled leadpipe. I have a few idea's i want to try. I want to try and some what copy Pilczuk's idea which I am sure he got from reading some of Schilke early writeing on leadpipe's. Pilczuk's 13 chamber design is patented so I can not and would not copy his idea out right! I believe is respecting intellectual property.

    I would love to us a denser material but cutting a tapered bore that deep in a dense material like stainless steel or tungsten carbide etc..... would mean i would need some expensive tooling and probably CNC controlled lathe as well ideally. If I stay with the softer stuff I can make my own tooling from mild steel which is cheap. I would like to have thicker walls but so much that it looks like a piece a of round bar stock sitting onthe side of the trumpet.
     
  8. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    Why don't you turn a mandrel out of cold roll steel or stainless that is the taper you want and then hammer a sheet of your desired material over it then braze it together. It would probably be cheaper than getting a boring bar that can hollow out a piece of round stock to the desired taper.
     
  9. Trumpet guy

    Trumpet guy Forte User

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    Wow cheap Bach bells and bargain leadpipes, where does one find those? Is it just a thing you can get because of connections or is it an online store/warehouse?
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Brek,
    as much as this guy appears to know, we can't help him! I am just surprised that he hasn't taken over the market by storm.

    I can appreciate players willing to experiment, but on the internet it is easy to blow smoke. YOU have provided excellent documentation on your project as well as a report on the play test. That helps us all! I wish Mr. LV would stop blowing smoke and do the same.
     

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