I would like to better Understand Leadpipe Science

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    Qualifications and ability to measure notwithstanding, some unidentified inconsistency makes Bach instrument variable - simple well noted fact. Your qualifications and capabilities won't change that fact. All I too can see is smoke rings. E&OE ;-)
     
  2. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    "Hardware is NEVER the answer. The sooner that message hits home, the sooner the player will do what is necessary!" -rowuk


    Given the context of your post there, Robin. Your philosophy is capricious, if not moot. Put into practice, it would be like trying to convince you that spending large sums of money, to get a particular sound: isn't necessary. :)


    ___________


    I doubt the variance effects quality fit and finish, you're looking to achieve l.v.




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    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Ted,
    after my experience with Spada in Switzerland, I am not convinced that the parts are what make Bach instruments less than optimally consistent. He rebuilds them with swiss watchmaker precision and they really work! I am convinced that not any Joe in a garage will get comparable results. René has a lot of experience and a big following in Europe. He doesn't need to talk about stuff, he produces results.

    As far as this thread goes, I am not impressed at someone having "cheap" bells or leadpipes available. We see what Bach does with NEW parts and a reasonably experienced team of workers - they poroduce inconsistent horns! When I hear some results then there is credibility. LV could use some credibility.
     
  4. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    There was a time i liked running criticism like that, in the ditch, l.v. I suspect most have appreciated your honest and objective criticisms: pointed of quality learning, and enthusiasm. This, despite Robin's BS.


    :D


    Cheers- and keep us in the loop, with you: and your son's, first project. Possibly, you will be feeling well enough, to begin soon.




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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  5. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Well I was recently talking with a major manufacture of leadpipes. THey have their own line and supply many famious brass repair and modification shop's. They have 12 different tapers and that is it. Now when looks at the cornicopia of trumpet's that have been produced 12 is not that large of a number. Just something to keep in mind in terms of the amount of cross over that must be built into the general taper.
     
  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Well no offense but a swiss watch is a joke compared to some of the stuff I build for Aerospace and Automotive clients. Until they start building instruments from a solid billet of brass on a multi-axis CNC milling machine I doubt we will have instruments that approach the level of precision I can do at home. My name is John by the way not Joe and I am anything but average unless you think it is average for someone to machine their own engine part's and make their own rifle action for competition purpose's and such. Personaly I only know a few people that do such things and non- of them are named Average or Joe? Even the best machinest started off makeing junk since their is a learning curve to almost everything. It is also a fact that 99% of inovation comes from people tinkering at home not from fancy design burea's or studio's etc....Creativity and inovation just do not work well with the idea's of productivity and control that are common to big business. This is why most companies have to build R&D facilities far away fromt heir head quaters and stock them with bright talented people that usualy come from outside their industry or are new to the industry. Group think and small idea's kills the entire process.

    A trumpet is not in need of a high level of precision in fact other then the valve case the actualy way in which a trumpet works opens it up to a lot of acceptable changes. This is why materials and methods used to form them are so important. If the design is sound you can make build anything from a student trumpet to a pro trumpet by simply changeing the materials used and the method of shapeing the materials to build what ever you want. In this day and age their is no excuse at all for part's not to be made to a high enough degree of precision to blue print for their to be much tolarance stacking. If this is a problem then it tells me that a company is not re-investing in itself. Most of the tubeing should be pressure formed in this day and age to get any shape, bend and taper that you could design into it. Brass is a very easy metal to work in this reguard. A computer controled honeing machine can do a far better job honeing and lapping a valve case then a human could ever hope too. For a student trumpet a progressively stamped bell could be made to work just fine but for a pro model I think the time honor method of either doing one and two piece bells on a mandrell and then thining in the approaite area's or electro-forming like the old Conn Coprion bells is the only two methods that I would use. Now witht hat said a robot could do all of this. You could even use a computerized air pulse test to sort trumpet's. Then a human play tester should play test all the trumpets not just some of them. A human that know the job shuld watch the robot at each stage. A custome shop with nothing but human's should be maintained to protect the art and craft of the trade and to make limited production items. etc.... Humans rule for tactile subjectiness like the way something looks or feels but we are not the most consistent or accurate. I would not dream of haveing a muman being weld the seems of a submarine together or hand machine the lip seals of a rocket motor assembly etc.......It just would not be good enough. For a trumpet a well trained human is more then good enough but that does not mean that humans are the best way to build and assemble ever part of a trumpet.

    I do not know what I am doing in terms of how to design a nice sounding trumpet but I know enough to know that if the design is solid and you do not like the sound the bell and leadpipe are way's to drasticly alter the sound. Putting a trumpet together is not unlike sweating the pipes in a house. I plumed my house becasue the previous people left in a hurry and tore equipment out. I do not use plastic or PVC in this case I used copper.

    Just to give you some idea of how my mind works when I was 6 one of my Aunts gave me a Platnium cased Miickey Mouse Wind up watch. I am not sure I think it has a swiss movement. When I was 10 it stoped working so I took the entire watch apart. I reassmled it and oiled it. To this day it still works perfectly. Since it is a collectors item I now have it in my saftey deposit box at the bank until I purchase a new home of my own again. I built my first liquid fueled rocket in 5th grade my first remote controll airplane in 1st grade. I built my first ham radio and tubed amplifier in Boy Scouts in 8th grade from part's I got from TV set's people where throughing away and books from the 1950's from Popular Electronics and Popular Science etc...... I am a tinker and always have been. It is not like I said I am going to build a better trumpet then Schilke in my garage in a matter of weeks from nothign but junk student horns or something. I do know though that a solid student trumpet can be improved upon tremendiously by replaceing the leadpipe and the bell. How do I know this???? Because I have spoken to a lot of people that have done just this. In fact some of them have built C trumpets from old student Bb trumpets as well and use them professionaly! I am not doing anything new in fact most of what I am doing manufactures do all the time when building protypes. The valve block, first ,second and third valve tuneing slide are of the same basic design on almost any companies Bb trumepts from student to pro witht he exception of which why they want to work the tubening for different methods of adjustment ie trigger versus hand adjustment versus various saddle and ring set-ups. So if the valve block, 1-3 slides are 98% identical that only leaves the leadpipe,bell. main tuneing slide and braceing with which to shape the sound from student to intermediate to pro. It does not take a genius to understand what I am saying since facts are fact's. Every aspect of most companies trumpet s does not change with model changes the materials and methods of production do but most design elements that work are usualy kept unless they need to drasticly cahnge the sound.

    In fact instead of being such a doubting Thomas I would ecourage you to get you hands dirty and have some fun! At the very least take a trumpet you already have in your collection that you are not too crazy about. Change the tuneing slide from what ever itis to the opposite so if iti s a square braced try a round braceless. Change the leadpipe to the most radical of leadpipes say a Pilczuk. Note the change each time you make a change. If you still do not like it try replaceing it with a bell you like say a Bach 37 or 72 or an old Martin Committee bell etc....Note the change. Every time you make a change do only one thing at a time. If you really wanted to follow the scientific method you wouldhave to change back to the origanal configuration before makeing another change etc...... This is fun it is a mini adventure all of it's own. I am sure if you are as good as you sound you will be able to note even the most subtle change. When you know what you want you put it together just that way. You know have something that is all your own and it is not like anyone elses. The sound the look the part combination is entirely of your design. that is so much more fun then just going to the corner music store ploping down $4000 dollars and ordering what you want!
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  7. Bach219

    Bach219 Mezzo Piano User

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    This may be a wee bit off topic, but on my leadpipe I have quite a few spots that look like corrosion?!? Though I'm not sure it is corrosion. It seems like it has 3 layers; Lacquer, the shinny brass, and a dull brassl??? Is it maybe corroding through the pipe itself?
     
  8. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    Wow - and I thought I talked a lot. :shock:
     
  9. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

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    "Just to give you some idea of how my mind works when I was 6 one of my Aunts gave me a Platnium cased Miickey Mouse Wind up watch. I am not sure I think it has a swiss movement. When I was 10 it stoped working so I took the entire watch apart. I reassmled it and oiled it. To this day it still works perfectly..."


    Two blues and one red my friend. I thionk you missed your meds again...
     
  10. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    Robin, I'm with you, and in amongst all the guff, John (Joe) seems to be making the point that "blueprinting" an instrument will cancel the tolerance stack-up and provide a great instrument. This premise must be true because your experience with Spada demonstrates exactly that - as does the ability for Bach to produce extremes from the same raw stock. But he makes his point poorly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008

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