I'm really at the end of my rope. Should I just quit trumpet?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Octiceps, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. Alex_C

    Alex_C Piano User

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    6
    May 30, 2010
    Gilroy, California
    Yeah I took some lessons in clarinet a few years ago and my teacher loved my tone, I was thinking of learning clarinet then sax .... but at a very deep level I like the trumpet, it's suited to me, even though I guess it's more work. I didn't know the sax is difficult to play quietly. I can play my trumpet quietly enough to play along with YouTube videos and the only speakers I have are the tiny ones on my laptop. I think a lot of instruments are great, it's just that the trumpet/cornet, I feel, is right for me. Aside from this, I live in conditions that are rather like being a soldier in the field and another reason to like the trumpet is its simplicity and durability.
     
  2. fraserhutch

    fraserhutch Mezzo Piano User

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    Jan 23, 2004
    Novato, CA, USA
    The fact that one of two great players believe that pedals tones may be harmful does not mitigate the fact that a number of equally excellent players swear by them. In fact, I know people in both camps, and those that swear by them believe that they can improve a player's embouchure incrementally if done correctly.

    That they don't work for you (I don't know that you've even tried them) means only that they didn't work for you, you haven't tried them, or that (some) people whose method(s) you admire advocate against them. It certainly does NOT support your flat-out assertion that they are a waste of time. In fact, anyone who states such things categorically immediately loses credibility with me. Same applies to long tones.


     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2010
  3. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

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    Feb 17, 2010
    So it's OK for you to post that Stamp and Gordon encourage Pedal Tones?

    But it's wrong for me to post that Brisbois and Reinhardt forbid Pedal Tones?

    Be sure to let me know if there are any other double standards in posting that I need to be aware of.
     
  4. fraserhutch

    fraserhutch Mezzo Piano User

    547
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    Jan 23, 2004
    Novato, CA, USA
    no double standard here, logic 101. IO am not stating that they are good or bad, just pointing out that there is no one true method. I am taking issue with your categorically stated "pedal tomes are a waste of time". That's what I call BS.

    It's perfectly valid for you to point out that Reinhardt forbids pedal tones, but that's not what your first post said.

    You may also state "I consider, like Reinhardt, pedal tones to be a waste of time". That's a valid statement. However, you do not KNOW this to be true, and there are plenty of excellent players who would argue otherwise. That is my point.


     
  5. vntgbrslvr

    vntgbrslvr Piano User

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    5
    Oct 10, 2008
    Waukesha, Wisconsin
    Inarguable fact!!!

    Trumpet players like to be "right". If you disagree....you've just proven my point.

    :)
     
  6. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

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    6
    Feb 17, 2010
    There have also been plenty of teachers and players in the past who have advocated the smile embouchure.
    According to you that makes it a valid teaching.
    And anyone who criticizes the smile embouchure is therefore guilty of "BS".
    That criticizing the smile embouchure is wrong because "there is no one true method".

    People who play pedal tones are prone to using one embouchure for pedal tones and another embouchure for the normal range.
    Having 2 embouchures is playing with fire, taking an unecessary risk with one's embouchure for normal range.

    Playing pedal tones forces the embouchure to loosen into the abnormal range making it more difficult for the player's embouchure to tighten again for playing in the normal range and above High C.

    Reinhardt did 40 years of study which documented how playing pedal tones had hurt the embouchures of so many players, Bud Brisbois among them.

    Any "benefits" that can be derived from pedal tones can also be derived from other practice methods in the normal playing range with one's natural embouchure.

    When you advocate the teachings of Stamp and Gordon,
    I do not insult you by denouncing your statement as "BS".

    So when I advocate the teachings of people like Brisbois and Reinhardt,
    I expect you to refrain from calling my statement "BS".

    Disagree with me if you want.
    That is fine.
    But throwing the accusation of "BS" at me is out of line.
    If you can't be civil, then don't post.
     
  7. fraserhutch

    fraserhutch Mezzo Piano User

    547
    86
    Jan 23, 2004
    Novato, CA, USA
    I cannot figure out how your logic works. That is an incredibly weak argument dude. Weak.

    I will say this: Using two embouchures for pedal tones is not how stamp and Gordon advocated them.

    And I think there must be a language barrier here.

    I have no argument with someone who will state "I have issues with such and such a method because of X and Y". I do have problems with statement such as "A is a waste of time" stated as a matter of FACT. You do not own the truth, as much as you wish top believe you dfo. you are just anothert player who has discovered what works for him, and who blindly parrots the conclusions of others.

    That Rheinhart turned out great students does not mean he was correct in every thing he said and believed. There are many other great players who use pedals in their daily routines. Same as long tones.

    You asset that using two embouchures is taking an unnecessary risk. Says you. There are a number of great players who do so routinely.

    this here is a statement uttered out of ignorance: Playing pedal tones forces the embouchure to loosen into the abnormal ran" It is NOT true.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT advocating the methods of either Gordon or Stamp. I am an advocate for neither. I am pointing out the BS in your assertion that pedal tones and long tones are a waste of time.

    An I am being civil. I call BS on the statement. And I will continue to do so.

    QUOTE=Moshe Mizrachi;510788]There have also been plenty of teachers and players in the past who have advocated the smile embouchure.
    According to you that makes it a valid teaching.
    And anyone who criticizes the smile embouchure is therefore guilty of "BS".
    That criticizing the smile embouchure is wrong because "there is no one true method".

    People who play pedal tones are prone to using one embouchure for pedal tones and another embouchure for the normal range.
    Having 2 embouchures is playing with fire, taking an unecessary risk with one's embouchure for normal range.

    Playing pedal tones forces the embouchure to loosen into the abnormal range making it more difficult for the player's embouchure to tighten again for playing in the normal range and above High C.

    Reinhardt did 40 years of study which documented how playing pedal tones had hurt the embouchures of so many players, Bud Brisbois among them.

    Any "benefits" that can be derived from pedal tones can also be derived from other practice methods in the normal playing range with one's natural embouchure.

    When you advocate the teachings of Stamp and Gordon,
    I do not insult you by denouncing your statement as "BS".

    So when I advocate the teachings of people like Brisbois and Reinhardt,
    I expect you to refrain from calling my statement "BS".

    Disagree with me if you want.
    That is fine.
    But throwing the accusation of "BS" at me is out of line.
    If you can't be civil, then don't post.[/QUOTE]
     
  8. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

    185
    6
    Feb 17, 2010
    I have never said that long tones are a waste of time.

    Bill Chase advocated the use of long tones, and they are beneficial in strengthening the embouchure as long as a person also does flexibilty exercises.

    If your calling my post "BS" is "civil"
    then heaven forbid we see what language you use when you are not civil.

    I will just ignore your future posts rather than feed the troll and engage in a flame war.
     
  9. keehun

    keehun Piano User

    378
    6
    Feb 4, 2010
    Minnesota
    That sounds good. We need to support and encourage the OP, not argue about merits of particular pedagogy of various teachers we've met...
     
  10. Markie

    Markie Forte User

    2,156
    15
    Jan 4, 2009
    Clarksburg, WV
    Optimally, you should not force the sound. That means you shouldn't be experienceing tension in your neck and other places. Mouthpiece pressure should be enough to create a seal so air doesn't leak out the sides of the mouth.
    Try this:
    1)Read Mouthpiece Pressure Assessment
    2)Watch Urban Agnas videos on "Flow"
    --
    If you notice that you are using too much pressure, do this.
    1)Put the mouthpiece in the horn and then, remove the tuning slide.
    2)Then, hold the horn lightly and buzz a single soft tone.
    3)Once you establish a good soft tone that doesn't quiver and require tension(which should be easy), begin to apply a little mouthpiece pressure.
    4)What you should notice is the pitch moving up with just the application of a little pressure. The purpose of this is to show just how easy it is to use mouthpiece pressure to raise the pitch.
    5)Now, buzz the tone again and this time instead of using mouthpiece pressure to raise the pitch, use the corners of the lips to raise the pitch.
    What it appreas you are doing is using the wrong muscles to play.
    To fix this, do lip slurs using the 7 valve positions
    0
    123
    13
    23
    12
    1
    2
    Do each position for about a minute (an honest minute) and be very aware of the muscles you use. Be sure to use the corners of the lips and not mouthpiece pressure.
    Will this exercise kick your butt? Oh my yes!! Your lips will feel like they just ran a marathon. Why? You're learning to use the correct muscles to play instead of strong arming the horn. Play the slurs light and soft! Never loud. Lip slurs are like push ups. Now that you know what muscles to use Pay close attention to not fall back to using the strong arm method.
    Here's the up side:
    If you honestly do these 7 lip slurs every day ( make it fun, do bugle calls like revelle, taps, make sure to go as high and as low as you can on each valve) by the time Christmas gets here, this problem will be in your past and you'll be back to being happy
    ---
    Pay close attention to Urban when he talks about posture, relaxing and how to breath.
    When Christmas get here, give us a shout. A great gift would be to hear that you're on the right path and you're having fun again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2010

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