Importance of 3rd valve slide??

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Stan from HB, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. Stan from HB

    Stan from HB New Friend

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    May 22, 2008
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    Hello group, I played all thru high school and some after also, my Olds trumpet had a brass ring on the 3rd valve slide, for lowering the notes using valve combinations 1&3 and 2&3. Certainly many horns do, and many do not. I was at a jazz club in Los Angeles a couple weeks ago, really enjoying what I was hearing. The group played 20's and 30's vintage. The cornetist was playing a vintage shepards crook cornet. Very often he poped the 3rd slide out to empty it. So, OK, it had no spit valve. So I walked up, looked closer, and the was no ring to extend the 3rd value either. It all started me thinking about it (OK, so times I'm slow).

    Well, that seems to be how a lot of older trumpets were (and cheaper studen horns still are). It did have a main spit valve. I will figure the missing valve was a matter of expense. I have a Conn Wonder 1910's cornet, where the water key opens two drain holes (although not on the 3rd slide). So I would guess it was just the way clearing the third slide was done?

    The bigger question, as I find it difficult to lip those notes down, is that what the musicians did (lip the pitch down)? Was the slotting looser on those horns (cornets and trumpets)?

    On the Conn Wonder that I have, there is a slide (just like a main tuning slide) that has two finger pads so that I can adjust this slide in/out while playing. I assumed that this would allow the performer to compensent for the 23, 123 and 13 valve combinations. I just gets difficult to slide back to the correctly "tuned" location as correctly "tuned" position will "as far as it goes" but will be with this slide always just some amount out. Is this situation unique to the Conn Wonder cornet?? Thanks for any information.
     
  2. Trumpet guy

    Trumpet guy Forte User

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    I think older trumpets and cornets were tuned with a long 3rd slide so that the 13 and 123 positions were in tune. New ones are built with the longer shorter 3rd slide so the 23 position would be in tune and you could kick out the slide for tuning the 13 and 123 positions.

    Anyway, I don't think anyone at a jazz club would need those notes though. I mean the only notes you need to kick out for are the low d and c#.
     
  3. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    A typical "old school" difference between a "student model" and "professional" rotary trumpet was found in the first valve slide. The first slide on the professional model sits at a 90 degree angle to the leadpipe, allowing the player to pull the first valve slide out with the thumb (pretty easy when you get used to it) for those nasty 1&3; 1,2&3 combinations. Some cornets, like your Conn Wonder, allowed for the tuning slide to be used.

    Almost all good instruments allowed for the player to access some slide for fixing notes, and yes, slotting was not as unforgiving as many modern instruments. And more importantly, many orchestration books mention the wildly out-of-tune notes, and urge the giving of those notes to other instruments, at least for long tones.

    Hope this helps!
     
  4. sass

    sass New Friend

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    I am playing a fairly modern horn with rings on both the first and third slides. I have had this horn for a little over a year and have noticed, as I stop fighting the horn and get into it's natural resonance, that these slides allow the horn to resonate more correctly.
    I think the older horns had more give and could be pushed into proper intonation a little easer. I know I didn't notice not having a first slid ring on the Olds Ambassador but now I use it more than the third on the Conn Vintage 1.
     
  5. MFfan

    MFfan Fortissimo User

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    Only my Ambassador cornet has a 3rd slide adjustable ring. The other two early 50's cornets do not, and have the extra long slide. I don't have much trouble playing the trouble notes by lipping them down. My old Czech small bore only has a fixed ring. I have pulled out the 3rd slide an 1/2 inch or so and that has helped play the problem notes in tune. The Besson has an adjustable 3rd slide ring , the Barrington has that and a ist slide saddle, which I find easier and less disruptive that the 3rd, to get the pitches in tune.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    If you guys are doing your Stamp exercizes diligently, this question doesn't even come up................... (anybody feel guilty?)

    All kidding aside, the poster mentioning the longer slides is spot on. It used to be a Bach strad mod too to have the first and 3rd slide shortened to the correct length instead of the best comprimise. I also think there is more of an obsession with slotting these days. Playing on the resonant center of every note means that the horn has to have movable 1st and 3rd slides.

    I have a turn of the century cornet without any rings and you just play it. Intonation is not a problem. My 1938 rotary Bb doesn't have any compensation either. There are a couple of keys where I pull the 3rd slide out a bit. It would be tougher if I played more second though......
     
  7. Stan from HB

    Stan from HB New Friend

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    Thanks to all for the quick and informative responses. I just never thought about this issue before. I will do a little 3rd slide measuring on my wall hanger cornets.

    Vugano Bro, thanks for also addressed the Conn Wonder with the moving main slide. I would gather, as this is used to tweek in the 3rd valve notes better, that the player had to learn where to return the slide back to "in tune" WHICH WOULD NOT be all the way in. I figure it still had to be out some to be in tune with the group, just as other trumpers/cornets. There is not another main adjustment for pitch. I would like know, as I want to have two new lead pipes made for the current a=440 (one for the original Conn mouthpiece shank taper (mouthpieces in excellent condition), and the other leadpipe for the current cornet standard taper. Anybody have a suggestion where I can get them made??

    Thanks, Stan
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Regardless of who makes them, the horn will be another after they are attached. The leadpipe is the most critical part of the horn. Why not have one leadpipe and interchangeable receivers? The only advertised custom cornet leadpipes that I am aware of are from Spada in Switzerland.
     
  9. Stan from HB

    Stan from HB New Friend

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    May 22, 2008
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    Perhaps so, it may end up with a different sound. By that theory, it is a different horn with the short shank than it is with the long shank. And if I get your point, we are speaking of tonal characteristics, not the tuning. But on the other hand, of the "TWO" horns I already now have, neither plays in tune with the group I am in. So the bottom line is, it won't get played. I am not modifiying anything the this nice CONN specimen, I want a insertable shank that plays in modern pitch. Thanks.
     

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