Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Dr.Mark, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. gunshowtickets

    gunshowtickets Forte User

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  2. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Who first said it I don't know (or now can't remember) but the statement was: "I've learned a lot about many things, some useful and some not, and now there is room to learn more as I've defecated and excreted away what wasn't used". I did clean up the language used by the person who told such to me.
     
  3. Gxman

    Gxman Piano User

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    Jan 21, 2010
    Mark,

    Thanks for that. Maybe my tongue does something as i move jaw lips etc. Maybe it does not sit in the exact same spot as when i play down low... i am just not aware of it moving as I can articulate with the tip of it. When i purposefully move it forward, then i cant articulate with the same part.

    Maybe it does move, but maybe so little that I am unaware of it. Or maybe the back of it curves and thus not changing the front position of it as it would when you purposefully move it forward and up. Don't know.

    Regarding this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73yGAZrS9J0

    I managed to get in touch with him. He said he does not use tongue except for lip trilling.

    Can someone give me example of what lip trilling is? Based on Charles Collings, its playing the harmonics in semi quavers. E G E G E G (top of staff) working way down... 3rd space C E C E C E, 2nd line G C G C G C, legder line below staff C G C G C G.
     
  4. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    All I know for sure Dr Mark is that if I raise my tongue, there's a pull upwards and back on my mouth corners which tightens my lower lip and makes it want to buzz at a higher pitch. If you suggest that this is part of a baby's hard wired nipple squeeze, suck and swallow reflex, then it makes perfect sense to me. Anyone who's tried hand-milking cows or goats will know that there is something of a knack to it, and evolution would have done us a disservice if it hadn't put some sort of built-in automatic mechanism in place.

    My recent experience is that this causes all sorts of pitch control problems when you start to develop tonguing, particularly double-tonguing. But your ear, brain and lip eventually come up with some sort of compensation technique to equalise 'tu' and 'ku' with sustain.

    I also suspect that many established players have forgotten about this aspect of their early learning process, and their compensation is so automatic that they're probably no longer aware of it.

    The question for the likes of me is having got some measure of control over the disadvantages of the tongue-lip physical connection, where can we make use of it to assist our performance? For now I prefer to hold it in reserve while my basic technique becomes stable and reliable. Who knows. I might want to fiddle about above high C some time.

    So I'm with you 100% on the physiological argument, and I think I follow your perspective on how you use tongue level to enhance your performance. Our only point of real disagreement is the fast air business. I think you've worked out the true mechanism for yourself and no longer need that old baggage from yesteryear.
     
  5. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Gxman,
    You asked:
    "Can someone give me example of what lip trilling is? Based on Charles Collings, its playing the harmonics in semi quavers. E G E G E G (top of staff) working way down... 3rd space C E C E C E, 2nd line G C G C G C, legder line below staff C G C G C G."
    ---
    I thought I already had: Here's what the tongue is doing when going from C to E. TGhe "T" is simply a strike of articulation to get the buzz going "TaaaaaaEEEEEEEaaaaaaEEEEEEEEaaaaaaaEEEEEE."
    If you look at page 13, third paragraph, it states:
    Tongue Position
    The position of the tongue in whistling is the correct tongue formation.
    ---
    Sorry for the confusion
    Dr.Mark
     
  6. tpsiebs

    tpsiebs Piano User

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    Yes, yes, yes!! The control of the obicularis oris et. al. cause the lips to resist the air. If mouthpiece pressure is used to resist the air, there is temporary results with horrible consequences with respect to range and endurance.
     
  7. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    1a. The velocity of the air appears to increase as the area where the air flows in the mouth is constricted by the tongue.

    2a. It has to be more than "a true mechanism for yourself" idea. If it only applies to me, then it's general use is usless.
    Dr.Mark
     
  8. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    ...and I try to word these phrases so carefully.... I meant that you, yourself, Dr Mark, have worked out a sound explanation for a problem that's baffled many for a long time, and is applicable to most if not all of us. Well done!
     
  9. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Sethoflagos
    If any credit is to be given it surely must be shared with you, rowuk, VB, and others who have either added to, argued with or given reasons to ponder. I think "we" did great! Maybe now is the time to sit back and measure the resiliency of the "new" idea. I just wish that some budding DFM wannabe would gather it up for their dissertation.
    If done correctly (one of my pet peeves is the misuse of statistics in academia but let's visit that issue another day) It would either support or not support the claim. Wouldn't it be great too know that the discovery was made right here on TM and we were directly involved. The only question will be: Do we show up as a group or select a representative when the Nobel Prize Committee comes calling.
    Dr.Mark
     
  10. tjcombo

    tjcombo Forte User

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    I think that maintaining tonguing capability whilst using tongue arch is where the K- Tongue Modified (KTM) advocates like Claude Gordon are coming from. It's certainly much easier to articulate with a raised tongue if the top is "anchored" behind the lower teeth.
     

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