Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Dr.Mark, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    As an ex-KTM enthusiast, I was studiously avoiding that particular can of worms, TJ. I could never get my tonguing crisp enough with it, and my sound didn't have the breadth I wanted. I'm not knocking it; it just didn't work for me.
     
  2. tjcombo

    tjcombo Forte User

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    Similar experience for me Seth. KTM is certainly one of those go backwards to go forwards things and even after a few weeks working on it, I couldn't see enough promise to stick with it. There are certainly some well credentialed advocates, so it's another case of horses four courses.
     
  3. Gxman

    Gxman Piano User

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    Hi Mark,

    I had a conversation with my teacher about what I have experimented with and to bounce some ideas off him to see what he says about tongue position etc.

    He basically said that looking at everything Holistically is the best way to develop as a player. To basically isolate the tongue and just move it within the mouth (and therefor say it does nothing) is incorrect way of looking at the function of the tongue. Why?

    Well, when you talk for example. Tee, Too, Ti, Taa, along with Kuu, Ka and so forth. Your tongue is part of forming the vowel sound. At the same time, your mouth does move, along with the jaw and lips to form the shape.

    Nobody talks without moving the mouth and only moving the tongue, while at the same time, nobody talks by just shaping the mouth and not moving the tongue.

    So the idea is to approach trumpet playing with the whole picture in mind. When you play high (like Eee vowels), that your jaw, embouchure etc must move in coordination with the vowel sound (tongue position). Then it is working naturally. Your body naturally moves jaws and lips along with the tongue, it does not isolate one from the other, that would be abnormal. So as we go higher with the horn, our vowel changes, our tongue changes, but also the lips and jaw etc must change to (as that is naturally how the body functions).

    By so doing, you never place too much stress on any part. The work is divided. He maintains the Air does most of it, but you don't want 'too much' pressure (pressure playing) by isolating the lips and trying to do everything with that. So as long as we use the tongue, and allow the lips etc to do what they need in accordance to the tongue (like when talking), then the work load will be divided and thus better for you over-all. The words I remember was "The tongue channels the air rather than forming the note. Your lip shape and air support will form the note, the tongue will act as a way of channeling that air"
     
  4. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    ---
    Wow, Gxman, Thanks so much for running this by your teacher. It's always good to get differing and similar views and opinions about this. I could be wrong but it seems like your teacher agrees.
    Dr.Mark
     
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Not true. In medicine we call this a "hot potato voice" where moving the tonge with a retro-pharyngial abscess really hurts. I sometimes play the trumpet with a "hot potato" voice. It really opens up my tone and projection. I am more of a mouth shaper than a tongue mover.
     
  6. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi G-man,
    You stated:
    "I am more of a mouth shaper than a tongue mover."
    ---
    How do you shape the inside of the mouth without it being done by the tongue?
    I'm guessing that you would have to move your jaw which the tongue is attached, right?
    Dr.Mark
     
  7. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Ahh Dr.Mark... was a snake in my past life... still am.
     
  8. Gxman

    Gxman Piano User

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    Hi Mark,

    I highly value my trumpet teachers opinion. He has won several 1st position trumpet competitions across Australia (like 15+ of them), flugelhorn as well. He has been part of the Australia's music association board since the 1950's (which gives him more than 50 years experience playing), has done master classes between Au, and New Zealand as well as done work for Broadway and has played with the Sydney Symphony orchestra as well. Done his masters degree, researched into many methods of playing etc and has just finished writing up a 150 song repertoire of something I did not understand, nor understood what for but was part of some of his studies that he has done, he just completed his 150 musical thing. I know it was something of value and importance I just did not understand exactly what lol (I am thinking Pedagogy for some reason... not sure if that is at all related to studying 150 musical pieces for some research purposes or not. its just a word in my head that I figured to get out in case it is)

    So I usually run stuff by him to get his thoughts as he has extensively looked at everything throughout his life and study.

    He told me a story once (I can not remember the 'method' - you may based on the story),

    There was a man who used to play professional, was doing great and known by many as a Trumpet player. One day he had an accident (bike or something), which wrecked his entire embouchure and jaw. He could not play trumpet for about a year as he was getting his his entire face reconstructed basically. Then, when he tried to play again, he realized the way he was playing 'though it worked' (for him), was not really the best way of playing and now that this accidents happened, he could not play like that anymore.

    So, he had to learn how to play the most relaxed way, on how to build up an embouchure over a period of time etc etc. So he had to analyze things more. how things work, what builds muscle, what doesn't etc. Now its all about having the aperture open and not clamping down and other things, to keep the sound richer, fuller, and embouchure must stay with open aperture. He eventually could play everything again that he used to be able to play, but now in a much more 'correct', efficient way than what 'worked' for him but not something you could call a method across the board.

    The story is something like that, his method of teaching is named after himself... that is the part I do not remember... you may.

    Some of that method is also used with me along with Herring, Charlies Collings, Chicovitz and Vizutti, so that we develop healthy, holistic playing with full rich sound. Not something that "may" work for me but only me and if anything ever happened, I never 'developed' properly.

    Louis Maggio... does that ring a bell? I just found something on google that said he had an injury etc... maybe that's the guy in the story.

    Anyway, I highly value my trumpet teachers opinion because of everything. I am very fortunate to have someone like that teaching me. In 13 months of my practice I have really progressed at a very good pace (faster than many) which I can only thank him for.

    Because of that, I like to read things here, learn, and anything I am not sure about or would like that 'authoritative' second opinion, I take it to him and say "what do you think about these ideas?".
     
  9. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    Dr. Mark says: "How do you shape the inside of the mouth without it being done by the tongue?
    I'm guessing that you would have to move your jaw which the tongue is attached, right?"

    of course the cheeks might be an appropriate method of changing the shape of the mouth or it's surrounding regions (if you don't consider the cheeks as a part of the mouth) --- also the jaw might be used to open up the cavity that is considered the mouth ------ then one might also consider the position of the lips on the mpc (lips pushed out and puckered, lips smashed and flattened, lips in a smile ------- so DR MARK --- I am thinking there are several ways to change the volume/shape of the oral cavity known as the mouth -- WITHOUT the use of one's tongue ----"that is my opinion, what is yours?"
     
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    SERIOUSLY- Yes, the masseter muscles performs this task. They work independently of course from the tongue with the insertion points involving the TMJ while the tongue insertion (the muscle group responsible for lifting the tongue) is much more south and inserts in the hyoid bone. PS: There are 8 sets of muscle working the tongue, 4 extrinsic and 4 intrinsic. This is of course quite a complex group of muscles that help coordinate such fine movement of the tongue, which has many important functions one of which is assisting with controlling the flow of fluids, for instance, cider. You know the brand I prefer.
     

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