Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Dr.Mark, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Sethoflagos,
    As you know, there has to be compression but there's also playing with a compressed hot sound (Arturo, MF, Doc) and not compressed (Balsom doing Bach).
    One of the things that may have been omitted is the vowels:
    Generally when people use the Tongue Arch, they are told to also think of shaping the tongue, "aaaaaaa"
    as in "apple" for the low register and "EEEEE" for the upper register. The sound "aaaaa" is created by having the tongue on the bottom of the mouth and the chin is generally dropped a little whereas "EEEE" is created by moving the tongue closer to the roof of the mouth which usually causes the chin to raise. It appears that people that use the tongue arch and/or vowel sounds incorporate the chin so that may be the reason the tongue arch works to make playing more effective/efficient in the upper register. It appears that more than just the corners make the aperture smaller for people that use this method.
    So where does this leave us?
    It appears that "faster air" or "compressed air" and other similar terms (one of my favorites being how Bud Brisbois described it) are used so we can actually understand what it should feel like when we incorporate these methods. The underlying mechanics appears to be when the tongue is raised to say "EEEE", the chin also raises which helps make the aperture smaller.
    Dr.Mark
     
  2. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    "UHHHHHH-OHHHHH"
    Yep!
     
  3. dangeorges

    dangeorges Pianissimo User

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    I can't believe that there's anyone here who can increase pitch (easily) without pushing the tongue up toward the roof of his mouth.

    By doing this, we create a faster air stream, which, with a smaller aperture, helps increase the pitch of the note.

    I'm very aware of this, and think of it as "pushing the note up" with my tongue.

    Rowuk says it's not Bernoulli at work, but I'm not sure how else to explain it.
     
  4. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    so, I've been paying attention to this thread --- realizing that everyone uses their arched tongue ------- now that I have been playing high notes ALL WRONG for several years, I actually did try arching my tongue last night ---- I got a few easy high notes out, but nothing reproducible.
    My only real conclusion is that,. I really don't arch my tongue when playing high notes. I think my reasoning is: several years ago here on TM, another thread in which many a trumpet player indicated, "if you can't double tongue the notes above the staff, and can't articulate them, it would be pointless to have that range, and be able to only slur or play long notes there -------------------------------- so, I have been diligently trying to have the upper register, as decent as possible, without changing chop setup, or tongue arching ----and to be able to go from low to high, and high to low without really changing much ---and I am happy with my high range
     
  5. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Reynold's Number ~ 8/D.

    If you truly understand 'Bernoulli', then the above expression needs no further explanation and it's 'case closed'. If not, then stick with whatever imagery works for you and don't worry about it ;-)
     
  6. Michael T. Doublec

    Michael T. Doublec Pianissimo User

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    As you know, there has to be compression but there's also playing with a compressed hot sound (Arturo, MF, Doc) and not compressed (Balsom doing Bach).

    Dr. Mark,
    I'm going to guess the players you described Arturo, MF, Doc are using shallow cup small diameter mouthpieces. On the other hand, one reason I do not play a Flugel is because I sound to bright no matter how deep of a cup I use...go figure.

    Mike Fesi
     
  7. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Mike,
    According to player/equipment combos: For MF, Arturo, and Doc, they play(ed) various sizes and brands. Here are a few sizes.
    MF played a V cup and shallow cup
    Arturo played a 3C
    Doc played 3C and a 7c expanded to a 5
    However, regardless of the size, playing with a "compressed sound" is learned. I wish it could be bought! It would sell like hotcakes! No wait, I'm glad it can not be purchased. I did a lot of work to be able to play in the extreme register with both a compressed sound (hot latin sound) and a controlled sound as with classical music(Bach).
    Sometimes if I'm performing "hot" and have to play a solo that's tender on the very next song, I'll slip a dampening ring on the horn. For me, the ring rounds off the edges of the sound which is great because it takes me a few songs to get the lip and air back to playing "normal" after playing in a "compressed" manner.
    Dr.Mark
     
  8. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    so, I am in good company with my 3C (well, it's an Asymmetric 3C, but the rim diameter and depth are that of a Bach 3C --- one of my all time most useful trumpet mpc's that I used in High School so many years ago
     
  9. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi kingtrumpet,
    No, it is us who are in good company because of you.
    Dr.Mark
     
  10. mike ansberry

    mike ansberry Forte User

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    I'm kinda proud of us. 3 pages on tongue arch and no flame wars. When I first saw this post I thought, "oh, no. Duck and cover".
     

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