Input Please: Why Is The Tongue Used In The Upper Register?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Dr.Mark, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Gxman,
    You stated:
    "So in essence, the note is being formed inside the mouth via the control of the tongue and the lips (embouchure) is simply releasing the note already formed prior to the lip.
    ---
    Is this kinda why a tea kettle will whistle different pitches (the note is formed in the kettle) but the tea kettle's spout hole stays the same?
    Dr.Mark
     
  2. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    rowuk,
    There's far too much in your last post to disagree with. Sorry, not going there.
    I will ask that if you know for a fact that IWK houses the definitive answer about tongue arch and why it works for thousands of trumpet players when playing in the upper register, show us.
    Dr.Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Only you claim that arch "works" for thousands. I maintain that "most" have not even given it enough thought to have a decisive opinion. I have given it a lot of thought and practical testing and do not agree with the hypothesis. In fact I can say that it like many things in life only has a "bit" of truth and that is enough for the casual thinker to blow it way out of proportion.

    I do not say that the arch is not involved. I say that there is too much attached to good upper register playing to single out the tongue geometry as being especially significant.

    We don't have to agree. There is no law that requires it.

     
  4. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    What is IWK?
     
  5. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Now rowuk,
    You stated:
    "So to answer the original question: Why is the tongue used in the upper register? Because it is in our mouth!
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    Come on, That's not nice. So isn't spit and molars. Location and usage are not necessarily the same.
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    Additionally, the question implies that the tongue is used ESPECIALLY for the upper register. This is not universally true and in a court of law would be dismissed as "leading" the witness.
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    Universal truth? So ideas are required to pass the All-or-Nothing Principle? Rarely does this apply and don't forget, there's a chance that what's being kicked around is!! Where's the research specific to this question, IWK have it? Show us.
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    This does not mean that there is no truth in the tongues activity, the observation is simply flawed when the rest of the parameters are ignored/unknown. We simply cannot state that x amount of arch results in x amount of pitch change.
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    Who said it did? X amount of arch = X amount of pitch change? Please!!
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    It would be advantageous for those trying to intellectualize the process to check out the research pages at the Institut Wiener Klangstil website. They are the geeks that even take pictures of the embouchure while playing-from inside the mouthpiece. The videos of the flapping lips destroy the aperature beliefs and show the dangers of just a "little" knowledge.
    ----
    That's not nice. I figured that the issue was nicely put to bed several posts ago but I guess not, my bad. If you know that the IWK houses information about arch tongue and the upper register and how exactly it works, show us the literature. Yes, it is a very fair to conclude that thousands of people around the world use it because it's advocated and taught on the web, advocated by many of the top trumpet players, taught in the schools, discussed by Claude Gordon and taught by me.
    The ball is in your court. If you have credible literature, play nice and show it. If not, then don't.

    Dr.Mark
     
  6. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    --
    Hi VB,
    Sorry about that, I should have been clearer. It is a site that rowuk recommended. It's called Institut Wiener Klangstil website.
    See!! Isn't IWK just easier!!
    Dr.Mark
     
  7. acarcido

    acarcido Forte User

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    I believe this "OLD" topic has gone too far already. There are too many variations between different players to make a solid conclusion on the use of the tongue in the upper register. I personally never even thought about what my tongue is doing when I push my horn up above Double G and above. Besides, I only go into the screaming realm when soloing with a Latin Jazz venue. Otherwise, I'm always well below High C.

    I don't think Herb Alpert would agree on some factors described in this thread. LOL

    Can we just agree to disagree?
     
  8. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Not while there is so much BS still being peddled to mislead the innocent. Sorry.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Dr. Mark,

    the ball is not in my court. I have nothing to prove and am not interested in things that I have studied that didn't work. YOU want to believe arch and YOU want others to. Fine, just do it. Your "proof" unfortunately doesn't stand up to any critical observation (not just mine), so we simply need to leave it for the time being as Dr. Marks Hypothesis. I am fine with that. Maybe one day you will find the breakthrough. I would be fine with that too - and even start using it - if it worked.

    If we look at the successful, they just kept doing their thing once stuff started working. With a bit of luck, they got a good teacher and some playing opportunities and never had to worry about the mechanics. I don't have one single example of someone who intellectualized their way to success. I sure am happy that I can just go play and teach and don't need to burden anyone with stuff like arch. Longtones, lipslurs, body use and keeping the ears on what is coming out of the bell has been more than enough. I NEVER mess with this stuff in the practice room.


    The banter here on the web is actually quite fun - especially when some lean a bit too far out of the window.......
     
  10. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    ---
    Yes! I hope that someone picks up the ball and does their dissertation or Thesis with it. It would be great to see blood flow studies and fMRI's of what going on when a person uses a arched tongue. The way I see it, it would be great to have someone do good honest research and report what they found without bias. One of the hardest things during that academic period is finding a researchable topic. I hope someone latches on to it. The contention is:
    Arching the tongue appears to lift the chin which brings the lips closer together which helps make the aperture smaller, making the upper register easier to attain.
    ---
    If this is not the way it works or if it's found that arching the tongue has no effect on the upper register, I'll be the first in line to say "I was incorrect and thank you for getting to the bottom of this topic!" I would want to read it of course.
    Dr.Mark
     

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