Insticntly learnign technique

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Sungman, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. Sungman

    Sungman Pianissimo User

    Dec 23, 2008
    Have any other players out there notice any techniques recomended by other famous players and realize that you some how naturally learned it without noticing?

    After using the Parduba I've notice that I somehow picked up on the Pivot technique, or something close to it.

    Is it just me or all these techniques advocated by these players just some of the natural phases and experiences that most players goes through after just playing?
  2. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

    Jan 24, 2005
    Lots of techniques and methods and so forth are mostly descriptions of how great players play. Or at least how it seems like they play.

    Some (lucky) trumpet players "just play" and from the very beginning are using excellent fundamentals. Others (mere mortals!) didn't get such a perfect start, so our "just play" doesn't work as well. So we study those that do it better and try to figure out how to get closer to what works.

    Edit - I don't mean to imply that these great players succeed without hard work and dedication, but there are certainly people who are naturally gifted in raw chops!
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  3. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008
    That´s right!
    And when you´re lucky enough to get an embouchure
    that works well and efficiently, the chance that you´re
    using one of the kinds already described somewhere and
    used by other successful players is big.
    Even more luck is when you find this embouchure from the
    start, but then "luck" seems to be present more often when
    you also have a good teacher . . .:-)
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    if we use YEARS as a measure, yes. If we use weeks and months, like diets, the stuff comes and goes. I read very shallow interpretations of the masters intentions here VERY often, where I can say that the real goal was not understood, and that the results are everything but that which was originally intended.

    It is very easy to talk ourselves into things - especially if no one is checking our progress. A good teacher gives us a regular comparison for our own playing. As we improve, more things become common denominators!

    For me it is critical to understand the original context to judge if I am doing something better, or deceiving myself. The pivot method method was something that I looked at and disqualified relatively early in my development. I consider it to be only compensation for hardware or body use problems. It adds tension to one or the other lip depending on the note that we are playing. I disagree with that, even if there are other players that have made it work. I maintain, they have to add other body tension, or hardware deficiencies to compensate for their pivot. My opinion is that it is better to solve a problem rather than implement 2 that "cancel" each other. That energy can be better spent on the creative process.
  5. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

    Aug 9, 2007
    Levittown , NY
    I have to disagree with you about the Pivot System causing more problems by adding other body tension or hardware deficiencies to compensate for their pivot. Because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for others, there are many different schools of thought out there and to dismiss one for everyone else because you couldn't get it to work for you may be preventing a student from taking lessons from a teacher who teaches one of those methods and making marvelous progress with it ,I don't agree with every method out there but I would never dismiss one just because it didn't work for me.
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    the pivot IS the shifting of tension to one lip or the other. A couple of very good treatises on this can be found here:

    YouTube - Monette mouthpiece explanation and demonstration
    and here:
    David G. Monette Corporation

    If any of us try this out as shown in the video, we realize that it is repeatable. In fact, I have never run across a player that was an exception.

    These are not merely marketing issues and funny enough, even although most trumpet and mouthpiecemakers do not advertise it, they are building their equipment in a way that does not need the body compensation that earlier designs did. Many newer horns have far superior intonation compared to their predecessors. Schilke was one of the very first to really make an issue out of true "superior" intonation. His R&D found many flaws that had made "tension" a very real part of playing. I had switched in the mid 70s to a Schilke 18 from a Bach 1 1/4C and the need for a pivot practically disappeared! For players used to "compensating" (any vintage Bach C trumpet player for instance), better horns often require a great deal of "relearning". This may account for much of the Brand Blindness in the classical trumpet venue.

    I have read Reinhardts book on pivot. Here are a couple of quotes:

    The PIVOT is controlled by pulling down or pushing up the lips on the teeth with the rim of the mouthpiece. The outer embouchure...and the mouthpiece move vertically (some with slight deviations to one side or the other) as one combined unit on the invisible vertical track of the inner embouchure ...; however, the position of the mouthpiece on the outer embouchure must not be altered in any way (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 194).

    "Pivoting is the transfer of what little pressure there is used in playing from one lip to another. . . The instrument is slightly tilted to get the tone at its most open point (Reinhardt, Pivot System Manual for Trombone, 1942, p. 23)."

    In the early stages of PIVOT development, some angular motion of the instrument is often prescribed, so that the performer may thoroughly familiarize himself with the proper jaw manipulation and its attendant sensations for his particular physical type. . . With consistent and correct daily study and practice, all exaggerated movements soon subside until they are negligible (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 19).

    If we get back to the REAL context of this method, we find a very comprehensive dealing with breathing, tonguing and body use - which as far as I am concerned, were the reasons that many players got better. The pivot was simply a necessary evil - and in any case, a better alternative when the equipment had deficiencies.

    To get back to my original answer: years are required to determine if our "instinct" really bears fruits and if we even understood the original premise. The pivot system was an example out of my own past.
  7. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

    Aug 9, 2007
    Levittown , NY
    I watched the videos and if you were pivoting that much of an angle you were over doing the pivot, like everything in life too much of a good thing is bad for us,if done correctly the pivot should be almost undetectable, it's more feel than actually pointing the bell at the ceiling or the floor , while breathing ,tonguing and body use are very important there's also lip and jaw placement and how to use them in different registers, Monett mouthpieces are the rage today in the past Parduba, Rudy Muck, Jet-Tone etc. all claimed fix your playing problems of intonation ,range, and endurance. I still say to dismiss a school of playing for everyone because you don't like it is being closed minded and could prevent someone else from improving, My point is agreeing or disagreeing to pivot is fine but to say it's bad is wrong.

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