Is Cryogenics dead?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Repair and Modification' started by MJ, Jul 26, 2008.

  1. Clarence

    Clarence Mezzo Forte User

    Jun 23, 2005
    san diego
    would tossing your axe in the deep freezer save you time and money. lol
  2. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

    Jun 11, 2006
  3. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008
    I once tried playing outdoor at minus 20 dgr. Celcius.
    It didnĀ“t improve my playing at all!
  4. patdublc

    patdublc Pianissimo User

    Jul 20, 2006
    Salisbury, MD
    Brekelefuw - no and sorry for the cruddy post. I am actually a big fan of ultrasonic cleaning. It is my preferred method for deep cleaning a horn.
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    anything like this labelled "incredibly different" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The incredible difference is in the quantity of dollars left in the billfold. The horn may be different, but how could one prove this - our own playing consistency is MUCH worse than anything that could happen with the horn

    I have done some intensive research into how people hear (as part of some audiophile interests). Many audio engineers have a substantially different opinion of recorded sound compared to musicians. Without getting into better or worse, very little of what we "hear" is actually the soundwaves that enter our ears. The waves come in, are compared to what has been previously experienced and stored, and a new "improved" image is formed. THAT is what we think we hear. There is great room for unconcious self deceipt here.

    Check this link out or google "auditory cortex" for more info on this "fascinating" virtual world!

    Musical imagery Sound of silence activates auditory cortex : Article : Nature

    The difference with a trumpet with or without tension, depends on the tension. Just imagine if the trumpet designer built a desired "tension" into the instrument. I guess the DIY approach would DESTROY some important part of the horns characteristics. Why does anybody assume that they can second guess the designer? if you are not happy with your designers concept, buy a horn from somebody that understands what you want.

    There is no free lunch! Some instrument builders use forged braces - they have "tension" and pass soundwaves easily. Some have annealed bells that have low tension - for specific acoustical reasons. Other companies make bells WITH tension, it makes them ring differently giving a desired sound when the bracing, thickness of metal and everything else is taken into consideration. Whether or not Cryogenics can really change those patterns has never been proven with musical instruments. For that you would need an electron microsope to examine the grain pattern of the brass. It could be a great doctoral thesis subject for a mechanical engineer. Any takers? If a mathematical or real mechanical difference was proven, we would have even more people claiming to "hear" the difference - audible or not!
    MJ likes this.
  6. DCB

    DCB Pianissimo User

    Mar 10, 2004
    N. Florida
  7. NickD

    NickD Forte User

    John was part of the TPIN freeze off. First four Chicago area trumpeters went over to Wayne Tanabe's shop and player four horns. If memory severs, one was a CG Benge, a middle of the road Bach, a Blackburn and a Besson. We filled out a questionnaire that was created by the TPINer's. Then, (again, if memory serves...) Wayne shipped them to Lynch for a frequency response test like he did in the article cited above. Then they were shipped back to Wayne who froze THREE of them. At that point the four players who did the first tests were called back in to test again. We, of course did NOT know which one was not frozen.

    The testers were John Hagstrom and Stanton Kramer (a serious amateur player) Mark Ponzo, a professor of trumpet from NIU and me.

    For all practical purposes I could not tell the differences between the before and after on the Benge, Bach or Yamaha. I DID seem to be able to tell a bit of a difference with the Blackburn. In a previous post here, I explained why that MIGHT have happened as a result of the freezing. Another very BIG possibility was that, on the day I did the original testing my chops were in one state and just felt different when I did the second tests. They were separated by a couple of months. I honestly believe that was long enough to cloud the issue for the testers. All I know is that I didn't care much for the Balckburn BEFORE the test and I loved it afterwards.

    It was that Bach that was the placebo. It wasn't frozen.

    Here is a link to the summary of the experiment:

    Play Test Results of the 2000 Cryo Experiment

    Now, I have spent quite a bit of time with Dr. Moore, the science editor of the ITG Journal. Several years ago I brought him to Chicago to do a lecture for the CSAAPT (Chicago Section of the American Association of Physics Teachers). He lectured on brasswind acoustics. He had great fun with me sitting right in front of him just ripping trumpeters for being some of the biggest suckers for snake oil in the world. His specific targets were weighted valve caps and cryogenics. That's when he first explained to me the problems with the process on brass as opposed to ferrous metals - that, in fact, it shouldn't work at all. He also was willing to concede that a horn with a lot of SOLDER might be affected due to different freezing characteristics of brass and solder. This MIGHT explain the apparent difference with the Blackburn.

    After thinking this all through and pondering my own experience, I'd have to go with my last conclusion: I wouldn't bother spending the money on freezing the horn. I'd buy a couple of nice mouthpieces.

    BTW, Moore DID change his mind about weighted mouthpieces and heavy horns (NOT just heavy valve caps), but that is the subject of another thread.

    IMHO Cryo is dead. Fine by me.

    MJ likes this.
  8. Schilke player

    Schilke player New Friend

    Mar 26, 2008
    Brentwood, TN
    I thought the brass bow had closed down??
  9. NickD

    NickD Forte User

    The cryo test was done 8 years ago. The Brass Bow as we know it has been gone for a couple of years with Wayne moving to NYC to work with Yamaha.

    I believe the shop is still there and they do school repair work primarily, as far as I know.

  10. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

    Jun 17, 2007

    Obviously anything that changes the molecular structure of the material, making for a far more dense and consequently, smoother surfaced material- is going to interact with the sound-dynamics of a Horn. How could it not? Can't be avoided. Whether it's significant to point of satisfying a wide breadth of subjective interpretation is likely an easy answer as well?

    Anyone properly cryo.'s a horn and runs it against the same model untreated. -You'll get a ten for ten count among testers, as to which is which? The snot-slippery valve-action alone will give it away from jump? I know this from piston-cylinder action in performance-engines. My goodness- not to mention i can hear a difference in a treated-engine; depite the fact that it's so loud it'll make your teeth-rattle. There's no way anybody can tell me a Musician isn't going to be able to hear a cleaner sharper sound in a Horn, provided the opportunity to play'em in the same setting, at the same time. Much less, not take notice of the fast-action vlaves.

    Course all this might not add up to the sound we'd be looking for. Or the desired action, which could be adjusted obv. Nevermind the stress-reduction, which is another thing that just can't be avoided given treatment -and fuels more added distraction in build-methodology.

    What- we know more about cryo. than the Muti-Billion Dollar Auto-Racing Industry, Tooling Industry, and on and on.


    This was a dead-topic from the start. :) It's just waitin' on who wants what? We start looking for cryo. and asking about it, the Builders'll add it to the to-do list?

    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008

Share This Page