Is it possible to....

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by john7401, Nov 13, 2009.

  1. ChaseFan

    ChaseFan Banned

    Mar 25, 2008

    When a person has a receding lower jaw at rest,
    then the lower jaw sticks out while playing,
    that is typical and normal for upstream Type 4 players,
    of which there are millions of such players in the world,
    including myself.

    See "Reinhardt's Embouchure Types" and halfway down the page at
    An Introduction to Donald S. Reinhardt's Pivot System

    "Embouchure Type IV...
    Embouchure Types IV and IVA players have lower teeth which recede beneath the upper teeth while their jaw is in their resting position...
    Reinhardt's Type IV embouchure plays with the lower jaw quite protruded beyond the upper, in spite of the jaw's natural position. While playing this embouchure type is identical to Reinhardt's Type II embouchure. Due to the protruded position of the lower jaw the horn angle of this embouchure type is very high, sometimes higher than horizontal"

    For a drawing of upstream versus downstream, also see the bottom of the page at
    You can click on the drawings to get larger versions.

    When upstream Type 4 players stick the lower jaw out while playing,
    we are *not* "doing wrong" as Rowuk claims.

  2. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

    Jan 24, 2005
    What do you consider an "insane" amount for lessons?

    If you have no money to spend, can you flip burgers a couple nights a week? That would pay for lessons. Do you spend money on non-essential things that you can do without? Even two lessons a month is better than none.

    Virtually everyone who's really good at anything had, at some point, a really good teacher, in person. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it's true.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    read the post. We are talking about a pencil and NOT about playing. I work with upstream players and am aware of the geometry. This is not Johns problem. The jaw should not move out to support the pencil. The corner strength of the embouchure is sufficient and that is the goal of the exercize..

    As far as geometry goes, whether he has a type 4 upstream is not something that we can determine based on his posting. Just because players with problems post things does not make them fact. Many times they are only describing symptoms.
  4. ChaseFan

    ChaseFan Banned

    Mar 25, 2008
    The original post of this thread said nothing about the pencil.
    The poster said that he has an upstream embouchure and that he has started protruding his lower jaw while playing.
    I pointed out that protruding the lower jaw while playing is normal and necessary for most upstream players.
    And when a person with an upstream embouchure does the pencil exercise, it is normal for him to automatically assume the playing position of the protruding jaw while doing the pencil exercise.

    You wrote:

    the jaw coming out has nothing to do with the pencil. It is merely something else that you are doing wrong because you have no qualified supervision.
    My 4th and 5th grade students can hold the pencil for a minute with the standard embouchure. After a minute even my face muscles start to quiver. The jaw NEVER moves."

    That is a wrong statement for upstream players.
    It is normal for upstream players to thrust the lower jaw forward while doing the pencil exercise just as the upstream players thrust the jaw forward while playing.
    Protruding the lower jaw is not "required" for the pencil exercise, but it is a normal and automatic thing to do for upstream players.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  5. sj3209

    sj3209 Piano User

    Nov 22, 2006
    Amador County, Calif.
    I'll second Pedal C's recommendations above. Find a teacher. First meeting might be free as an interview. One lesson a month to start you on a good path.

    And ignore all the Big Guys arguing about Type whatevers. Find someone local to help you.

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