Is There a Universal Mouthpiece Placement

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Dr.Mark, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with Patrick. I also do not see any need for additional "grip". I also do not see any relation between lip and mouthpiece size.

    The lips must touch one another so that they can open and close like a switch. They must be "free" to contract and expand as the range being played requires.

    The rim I personally feel is like a good cognac or whiskey - an acquired taste. I firmly believe that the cup volume of the mouthpiece is part of the interface to the standing wave of the horn. For those that prefer a "softer" coupling (with a change in the overtone structure toward less brilliant), it is my opinion that a larger cup volume aids this. For players that want a very direct coupling to the standing wave and perhaps a tilt of the overtones to more brilliant, a cup with less volume could perhaps aid this. This preference only applies to reasonably stong, well practiced players. If the chops are weaker, anything is a crap shoot!
     
  2. TrumpetMD

    TrumpetMD Fortissimo User

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    I just saw that episode. (How did we survive before cable tv?)

    Mike
     
  3. TrumpetMD

    TrumpetMD Fortissimo User

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    I like Dr. Mark's theory, because it helps us to think about what we're doing. But I agree with Patrick (I added the bold highlights). What feels right (comfort) and what allows you to make progress (refinement) is what I've been taught and what I follow.

    Mike
     
  4. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    I believe you are correct ----- I believe a mouthpiece has already been designed to counter this ------ ASYMMETRIC

    ps. you might find the following very interesting reading -- http://www.asymmetric-mouthpiece.com/vertical_mouthpiece_position_and_range.htm

    here is another quote from the home page of Asymmetric ""“experiments seem to give conclusive proof that trumpet tones are originated by the upper lip vibrating as a single reed against a relatively fixed body, i.e. the lower lip.---The lower lip, not being an entirely fixed body, is forced into a limited vibration --- but its main functions are to provide something against which the upper lip can vibrate and to control its vibration rate (pitch).” """

    pss. you are very welcome in advance that KT here is able to increase your knowledge ---- ROFL ROFL ROFL
     
  5. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi trickg,
    You stated:
    "I think it's an interesting theory, but mouthpiece placement is such a personal thing that is based on comfort, which in turn is dictated by the underlying teeth, that it would be hard to say that there is a universal placement. Each player who becomes a solid, working player, "finds" their placement based on hours of work in the practice room, which ultimately is work toward refinement.I don't think it will have an effect on mouthpiece size - again, that's going to be dictated by the individuals physical makeup of lips and teeth.
    ---
    In the beginning, I'm not sure that comfort and personal preference is warranted. If the person is a 5th grader, they do not possess a preference since they have nothing to compare it to. Also, the idea of mouthpiece size dictated in part by the distance between divots is a long way from the original thought which is the idea of a universal placement where the mouthpiece touches both divots without significantly curling in the lips to do so.
    ---
    Besides which, where does this leave brass players who use larger mouthpieces, such as tuba players? ALL of that structure that you are talking about - lips, divots, the red, the vermillion border, etc, all winds up inside of the rim of the mouthpiece
    ---
    Great observation but I don't think that particular observation quite stays within the confines of the hypothesis which involves trumpet and mouthpiece placement. I think it's safe to say that tuba, trombone, and other large brass instruments are a whole another world. Not greater or less than, but different. If anything, your observation could lead to investigations into the world of large brass instruments and how the mechanics of the embrouchure works for them. Again, the hypothesis is about the possibility of a universal trumpet mouthpiece placement. If the idea of a universal placement is someday established, then, based on that information, possibly, a discussion about the idea of the distance between divots and approx. mouthpiece size can be entered into.
    By the way, did you use a mirror and investigate your placement? What did you find?
    Dr.Mark
     
  6. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi KT
    Yes, thank you for the knowledge!
    I've owned the assymmetric by Lynch since around the mid 1990's. For me it does pretty much what you've described and I've found nothing that will produce high notes with such ease once a person gets the hang of it. My problem is that my tone and lower register suffered which I'm sure was due to a flaw on my part.
    Thanks
    Dr.Mark
     
  7. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi TrumpetMD,
    While this is totally off topic, I have to share it.
    I remember watching Gilligan's Island when I was a kid and lusting over Mary Ann and Ginger but far too young to ever have a chance with anything remotely like those two. Recently they had a Gilligan's Island marathon and I depressingly realized that I'm now as old as Mr. and Mrs. Howe. What the heck happened!! I didn't sign on for this!! I'm suppose to stay young!! Where the heck's Gman. Hey Gman, You got that age cream ready yet. I want to mix it with the DHC cream.
    Dr.Mark
     
  8. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi rowuk,
    You stated:
    "I also do not see any need for additional "grip". I also do not see any relation between lip and mouthpiece size.
    ---
    The thought of the distance between divots and mouthpiece size is for the future and something that can be entertained down the road once the idea of mouthpiece placement is debated. The present idea is, Is there a universal mouthpiece placement.
    ---
    The lips must touch one another so that they can open and close like a switch. They must be "free" to contract and expand as the range being played requires.
    ---
    No disagreement here. Did you buzz the mouthpiece while looking in the mirror? Does your mouthpiece touch both divots?
    ---
    The rim I personally feel is like a good cognac or whiskey - an acquired taste.
    ---
    Before we get to the cognac, let's investigate if having the mouthpiece touching the upper and lower divot is a good general way to place the mouthpiece and a good way to teach how the mouthpiece should be placed on the lips. When I look at pinterest and other images, that's what I see. the mouthpiece touching the divots. Now grantred, you can say "Dr.Mark, you can't tell anything from an image" and I would say "why not?"
    ---
    I firmly believe that the cup volume of the mouthpiece is part of the interface to the standing wave of the horn. For those that prefer a "softer" coupling (with a change in the overtone structure toward less brilliant), it is my opinion that a larger cup volume aids this. For players that want a very direct coupling to the standing wave and perhaps a tilt of the overtones to more brilliant, a cup with less volume could perhaps aid this. This preference only applies to reasonably stong, well practiced players. If the chops are weaker, anything is a crap shoot!
    ---
    Again, I can't argue with what you're saying but what does this have to do with the simple act of placeing the mouthpiece to the lips? I'm suggesting that regardless of the size of the cup, rim, shank, back bore, ect., there might be a universal placement of the mouthpiece that still allows for individual differences such as those variables you mentioned. Did you try the test? What did you find?
    Here's the neat thing. So many kids have band directors who's emphasis was/is woodwind, percussion, string,ect., that they have no concept of proper mechanics for trumpet. If a univesrsal concept of placement can be established, then it can be taught. In time, possibly the distance between divots can be investigated and it'sd relationship to mouthpiece size. Actually, it can be investigated now but I'll leave that to some student struggling for a dissertation topic.
    ROWUK!! Wow!! this is actually something that has absolutley nothing to do with air use. Definately a first!!
    Dr.Mark
     
  9. TrumpetMD

    TrumpetMD Fortissimo User

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    Hey Dr. Mark.

    That's why we continue to watch Gilligan's Island (or similar programs) ... to stay young. ;-)

    Even farther off topic ... I've done a one-eighty on the great debate from this show. As a younger person I was a "Mary Ann" kind of guy. And I suppose I still am. But as I've matured, I've realized that the one with the talent and the better looks is Ginger. :-)

    Mike
     
  10. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi TrumpetMD,
    You stated:
    ""Mary Ann" kind of guy. And I suppose I still am. But as I've matured, I've realized that the one with the talent and the better looks is Ginger."
    ---
    Now that I've grown older the one thing I've learned is that I don't have to choose. Give me both and yes, I'll keep it clean. "Me, Mary Ann, Ginger are all headed for the shower.
    Dr.Mark
    Hey Mike did you get a chance to look at yourself while you buzz your mouthpiece? does the mouthpiece touch both divots?
     

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