Just a practicing comment...

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by VentureScore, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. Branson

    Branson Piano User

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    The original suggestion was mentioned to me in 1948 by a trumpet player who had used it most of his life.
     
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  2. J. Jericho

    J. Jericho Fortissimo User

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    I can't imagine how distorted a mouthpiece designed to be round and symmetrical would have to be for this to make the minutest difference.
     
  3. Branson

    Branson Piano User

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    I didn't either...... until I tried it.
     
  4. fuzzyhaze

    fuzzyhaze Mezzo Piano User

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    "Some days you get up and put the horn to your chops and it sounds pretty good and you win. Some days you try and nothing works and the horn wins. This goes on and on and then you die and the horn wins."
    Dizzy Gillespie
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I am amazed at the very "poor" content here by P. Stork. It seems like every myth concerning mouthpieces was repeated here. It is surprizing that the ITG even allowed this to be printed. Maybe there were other reasons than "helping trumpeters" get better - perhaps "helping trumpeters" spend money.........

    Bob Malone kept the technical content low, but made all of the relevant points understandable for general readership.

     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I will not deny that there are differences, but will challenge the assumptions to why. Symmetry cannot be the issue. The mouthpiece is far too precice compared to the horn. It could be mass coupling. That area of the horn is very sensitive to mass and location of the back brace. Some artisans even decouple the bell and leadpipe.

    It cannot be turbulence. The trumpet works by a standing wave in the horn - moving air is a function of kick starting the lips. Playing loudly uses more air because the lips "leak" when vibrating great distances.

    Even if it makes a difference, at what level does it become "mission critical". I have two answers for this question: when our playing venue becomes so competitive that we will not succeed without every minute improvement. The second when is:when we are psychologically dependent and noticing a suboptimal setup would cause us to fall apart. Everything else should fall into the category: nice to have!

    Food for thought for those that use this technique: how clean are your instruments? Would not any uncleanliness in the receiver be multiple orders of magnitude greater than an eighth of a turn? What about the temperature of the horn Mouthpiece during testing? Have you measured the shank cold vs after 2-5 minutes of long tones? With the typical shank tapers, even 2 degrees temperature change can affect how deeply the shank enters the receiver. That changes the total length of the horn. For the believers, how often do you replace mouthpieces due to wear. If you play alot, you can get the gap adjusted every 2 years.

    I am not criticizing the possibility - only the myths surrounding it. I always wonder why those that use the concept, don't have issues with wear, dirt, temperature, gap. I wonder why the knowledgable manufacturers do not address this (well that is not fair - Dave Monette actually does when you take the horn in for alignment!).
     
  7. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    I have tried "clocking the mouthpiece" with no variation in the mouthpiece I used, my current mp is a wedge, only 2 positions 180 degrees apart, no difference I can detect.

    The other day I cut the shank off a no name 7C, and found the throat to be 1/2 mm off center, perhaps there is something in alignment.

    According to my calculations, a 2 degree C rise in temperature will increase the gap by 0.0037 mm, assuming the receiver does not change as well.

    Everything is interdependent, I did not believe that the tension of the waterkey screw would have an effect till I tried it.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Stuart,

    pretty much my point. IF the difference is of an easily noticed magnitude, then other things like dirt, wear and temperature must have a significant effect as it would be an even bigger deviation. Yet, I find no posts concerning this.

    I calculated (Thermal Expansion - Linear) that the shank (not the gap) would increase in size about the quantity that you posted and therefore as the taper is a very gradual angle (Morse taper= 2.862°), I calculated a much larger difference - .08mm using Pythagorus. Actually the calculations are bogus because the shank is not solid or a tube with a fixed wall thickness. I think that regardless, the differences are greater than an 8th turn anywhere on a modern brand name mouthpiece.

    The water key tension is a BIG deal. I got my C trumpet back after some mods and It was really good, but certain things felt "stiffer" than ever before. I now only use one anchor side of the spring on the water key and the horn is more "vibrant in my opinion.
     
  9. vern

    vern Piano User

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    I'm not questioning the validity of "clocking" the mouthpiece, but am questioning whether I need another trumpet ritual when there are SO many indisputable factors in what comes out the other end of the bell. I experimented with rotating the mouthpiece and got variable results. I quit after concluding that I was playing mind games with myself, something I have enough problems with on trumpet.
     
  10. Klaus_O

    Klaus_O New Friend

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    I had the opportunity to sit in on a talk that Bob Malone gave a few years ago. He had student volunteers come up and play. The first thing he did was to inspect the leadpipe and crook for cleanliness. He then snaked each clean and had the student play. Big improvement. He then clocked the mouthpiece and had the student play again. At one position there was a very positive change in sound and response for the student. After that he went to work on the spit valve.

    Cleanliness on the front end (mouthpiece, leadpipe and crook) are very important. yet, clocking the mouthpiece made a difference in spite of swabbing the leadpipe/crook and cleaning the mouthpiece after every time I played. Yes it can denigrate to a ritual where you have different positions for the different mouthpieces on different horns. Too complicated. Now I just make sure the printing on the mouthpiece is in the 12 oclock position and run with that.

    As to why this works....maybe an accumulation of tolerance differences between the different pieces either in manufacturing or as the instrument ages. I did notice that clocking the mouthpiece makes very little difference on the cornet and flugel..
     

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