Just Wondering?????

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by eclipse trumpets, Jul 26, 2004.

  1. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

    Dec 14, 2003
    how about a chicago benge? there have been many attempts to recreate this horn, but I have tried some of the kanstul replications, and while they are without a doubt great horns, they still seem to be lacking that "vintage" sound. its hard to describe but Im sure many people here know what Im talking about, thres just something about the originals, maybe the age of the laquer, I dont know. well anyway, my vote goes to the chicago benge.
  2. chetbaker

    chetbaker Pianissimo User

    Nov 17, 2003
    FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Profile You have

    Selmer K-Modified...in particular the "lightweight" version.

  3. djm6701

    djm6701 Pianissimo User

    What about the original Besson Brevete from the pre-war period? That *is* the one that "started it all", isn't it?
  4. camelbrass

    camelbrass Mezzo Forte User

    Nov 5, 2003
    Dubai, UAE
    Now there's a great idea pre-war Besson..complete with underslung 3rd slide ring.


  5. Gilligan

    Gilligan Pianissimo User

    Aug 3, 2004
    Colorado Springs, USA
    Legalities of duplicating a vintage horn.

    As far as I'm aware, once a horn is no longer under patent (ie. patented over 29 years ago), it is in free domain and may be copied. They may not like you much and scream with lawyers, but I don't think they can do anything about it. Check with a laywer specializing in patents to be sure.

    Often patents that were listed on a horn had little to do with the actual horn. For example the Holton New Revolution trumpets made in the 1920's and thirties had a patent stamp on them. I've looked up the patent and it was for a special method of brazing monel valve bodies togeather so as to not create soft spots in the valve walls. The patent never actually applied to the horns. It was listed on the horn only for marketing purposes.

    Actually doing a replication of one of those old horns probably wouldn't be too difficult. Computer/laser technologies can trace a horns shape, wall thickness and bore size to millions of an inch. A good metalurgy lab will be able to breakdown the brass and identify its composition. And I'm sure you if anyone will be able to identify characteristics which might come directly out of a specific manufacturing process.

    My only question is why. Over the years mastercraftsman like yourself have sought to improve upon the horns of the past. I'm sure you have disected alot of horns. When you are designing a new instrument you take everthing you know from the old and add new things learned to make them better (we hope). So why go through this process and end up with a horn identical to one already designed. There are certain horns that are well known for their perticular playing characteristics such as the Mt. Vernon Bach. These horns are already being copied by Kanstul, Holton and others. I don't know of any of them that have actually made a Mt. Vernon Bach that is beter than the original.

    I believe that over time the vibrations of playing begin to tune or temper the brass in a horn. It is similiar to how a violin will get better with age. While I can't identify a specific measurable characteristic I have found that the vintage horns feel (vibrate?) better. Maybe this is what super freezing a horn does? I don't know as I have never had a change to play a horn treated this way.
  6. Cliff Fitch

    Cliff Fitch New Friend

    Jul 24, 2004
    Azle, Texas
    Mt.Vernon Bach

    If someone was to reproduce a Mt.vernon Bach, Im sure it would sell for at least $2500.00. Why bother when they can still be obtained for that price? Cliff

    MUSICandCHARACTER Forte User

    Jan 31, 2004
    Newburgh, Indiana
    Re: Mt.Vernon Bach

    Good question!

    I have a rather simplistic answer: you would get a new horn. You wouldn't have to worry about finishes, or valve wear, or any of the problems that MAY come with an older horn.

  8. djm6701

    djm6701 Pianissimo User

    Re: Legalities of duplicating a vintage horn.

    I am wondering if the application of modern manufacturing techniques to an old design would, in itself, improve the instrument. You wouldn't end up with an instrument that is identical to the original; you might very well end up with the desirable characteristics of the original mixed with the better intonation and response of a modern design.
  9. Veldkamp

    Veldkamp Piano User

    Mar 29, 2004
    the Netherlands
    As a Bachfan I would say a Mt.Vernon and then a copy of mine... :lol:

    I played and owned many vintage Bachs and found the last Mt.Vernons produced the best. I think Bach also thought that himself otherwise he wouldn't have made the changes to the models he produced in his last years.

    But nobody succeeded succesfully in copying them. The best copy I played was made by Blech-in, Nuernberg, Germany (Christian Andress). His Bach conversions are pretty good and much better in tune.

    But a exact copy of the pre-war Besson is also a good option. But I always felt that new instruments have less character as new ones. It has probably to do with something like stress releasing through the years.
  10. Veldkamp

    Veldkamp Piano User

    Mar 29, 2004
    the Netherlands
    Re: Mt.Vernon Bach

    That's always what I don't get about reproducing vintage horns to. The Kanstul Chicago Benge copy isn't cheaper as a old vintage Benge I think.

    The Zeus is probably cheaper as a real Mt.Vernon but I don't think it plays as half as good as a real Mt.Vernon. I played a Kanstul copy of the Mt.Vernon, it didn't come close to the original.

    In fact you mostly see vintage horns sell under $2000,- except if they are in mint condition and goldplated. It's hard to compete with that price I think but I'm not in the marketing bussiness.

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