Keeping the throat open-AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH(driving me crazy!!)

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by guitarsrmine, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. dadbob

    dadbob New Friend

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    Hi,

    I am also a comeback player starting this year after about 40 years away. I have been working on my embouchure and my breathing with mixed results all year. I think the advice and feedback you have already gotten is great, but I wanted to tell you about a couple of websites/resources that I am excited about and that address these issues very well. I can't remember if I heard about them here or on TH.

    Anyway, the first one is George Rawlins website, grawlin.com. George has the knack of breaking down breathing and embouchure to its most basic components which has been especially helpful to me in starting over. He offers Skype lessons and consultations. His DVD is very reasonably priced. In fact, if you have a consultation, he will give you one included in the price. He is also a great guy. I had a consultation two weeks ago and after doing his beginning exercises, I am starting to see the results. Very encouraging.

    The second website is Greg Spence's website called mystery to mastery. I haven't ordered these materials yet, but the sample videos on the website are great and I plan to order them soon. I love the approach of learning to break bad habits away from the horn so as to reprogram yourself.

    Hope you find this helpful and good luck.

    Bob
     
  2. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    General broad information possibly of some value:


    Air pressure inside the mouth cavity necessary to play Double C at double forte or louder volume: 6 to 8 PSI*.


    PSI necessary to expand the throat and possibly damage throat cartilage: See "1" above.



    OK now ask yourself if under those circumstances the average trumpet player would intentionally "close his throat" and cut off air supply.




    * Difficult to gauge exactly. Came by this figure by testing the maximum air pressure I could develop and physically hold within a closed pipe system. This seemed similar to the effort I required to blow a solid Double C at volume
     
  3. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    Addition to what Rowuk is saying. No amount of trying different things will make up for the fact that you are tryning to play high notes before your embouchure is ready. Register dvevlopment is a natural result of developing you embouchure is an intellegent progressive way. You can read all you want too but the only way to improve is to work with a teacher that will put your playing in the proper context. There aren't any "tricks" to it. My students never have any range problems.
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure what you are getting at. The "average player" does use large amounts of tension that are bad for many things, they do close off the upper body and quite often the glottis.

    I measured a B below double C as required for the Leopold Mozart Concerto 20 years ago. 3 Bar was required. About what you need to pump up a tire. That is 43PSI. I have the math somewhere and after I dig it out, will post it. I had a tube that went to an electronic pressure meter taped to the corner of my mouth. It measured while playing. The high A in the second Brandenburg Concerto took 2.6 Bar.


    My major point was not range or damage, rather that:

    Dry Bones


    E-ze-kiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
    E-ze-kiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
    E-ze-kiel cried, "Dem dry bones!"
    Oh hear the word of the Lord.

    (tune ascends up in half steps, as in midi)

    The foot bone con-nected to the (pause) leg-bone,
    The leg bone connected to the (') knee bone,
    The knee bone connected to the (') thigh bone,
    The thigh bone connected to the (') back bone,
    The back bone connected to the (') neck bone
    The neck bone connected to the (') head bone
    Oh hear the word of the Lord!

    Dem bones, dem bones gon-na walk a-roun'
    Dem bones, dem bones gon-na walk a-roun'
    Dem bones, dem bones gonna walk aroun'
    Oh hear the word of the Lord

    (tune descends in half steps and we retrace the body)

    The head-bone connected to the neck-bone,
    the neck-bone connected to the back-bone
    The backbone connected to the thigh-bone
    the thighbone connected to the kee-bone
    the kneebone connected to the leg bone
    the leg bone connected to the foot bone
    Oh hear the word of the Lord


    This means that we need to LEARN about the interaction of muscles used when playing and solve the problem instead of putting a bandaid on the trachea. EVERYTHING is connected!
     
  5. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    I respectfully suggest Rowuk is an order out in his pressure figures, the maximum pressure an average person can blow is around 4 psi.

    There was a standard fitness test when I did physiology 50 years ago where a person was required to blow a mercury manometer to 150 mm ( 3 psi approx ) and hold, it was a very fit person who could maintain this pressure for more than 10 seconds.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Stuart,

    A bicycle tire needs about 3 Bar (our standard german bicycles anyway). I can do that with a hose.

    Here is how I converted that: Online Conversion - Pressure Conversion

    There are also more extreme examples:

    Hot Water Bottle | Strange, Weird & Bizarre Medical Cases & Facts

    I can't do this, so it is more than 3 Bar.
    Here is another example with a conventional latex balloon:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwh-i0WB_bQ

    Using the above website 840 mm/hg is 16.24 PSI

    I can't explain your numbers but I can probably manage 2-2.5X a latex balloon, so I don't think that I am a freak.
     
  7. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    Thanks for the links, the second was a good laugh, if he could develop 500 psi his insides would be splattered over the room. The first needs some clarification, there are two methods of expressing pressure measurement, the more common "Gauge" where the pressure is referenced to atmospheric and "Absolute" where the reference is a vacuum, this gives atmospheric pressure as around 14.7 psi or 760mm Hg.

    The balloon bursting pressure was measured with an absolute gauge, the graph at the end showing a starting point of 780mm Hg and bursting point of 840mm Hg, the actual pressure that burst it is the difference between the inside pressure and atmospheric ie 840-780=60mmHg or 1.158psi. Your estimation of 2-2.5x bursting a balloon is pretty well on the mark of 2.86 psi or 150mm Hg.

    I shall reconstitute my mercury manometer when I go up to town in the next couple of weeks and start a new thread on air pressure and trumpet playing.

    Next time you see your friendly medical adviser ask can you blow in his blood pressure machine.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, Maynard did have several ruptures caused by his playing antics. Last time I blew into a rubber bag, it was to determine lung volume not available pressure....... I will on occasion practice with my bicycle though. Not a bad etude............

     
  9. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    The open throat concept was first pounded into me with CPR rescue technique viz tip the head back to open the throat.
    Well, this seems to be a corrolary to the "marching level position" of my trumpet / cornet. Sometimes it helps to raise one's music stand higher as we practice. It hasn't seemed to bother me much as I've never been much of a downstream player and now I've not often the urge to go altissimo on my normal Bb.
     
  10. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    Got that right Stuart.

    At Rowuks suggested "43 PSI"???

    His throat cartilage would have been splattered on four walls and ceiling. That's a fact Rowuk, but I do appreciate the discussion.
     

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