Lactic Acid … Warm Down

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Liad Bar-EL, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. trpt2345

    trpt2345 Mezzo Forte User

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    Chops are not muscles. Your lips are tissue. Muscles surround the lips in the embouchure (the obicularis orbis, IIRC) but your lips are not muscle. No lactic acid. This is why anaologies to sports are so bogus, they sound reasonable but are based on a fallacy. There is no need to warm down, nor (if you read jacobs) is there any need physically to warm up.

    Michael McLaughlin

    We sleep in separate rooms, we have dinner apart, we take separate vacations - we're doing everything we can to keep our marriage together.
    Rodney Dangerfield
     
  2. Albert Castillo

    Albert Castillo Pianissimo User

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    I do some warm down, but there is a very little diference between doing or not.
    Usually I don't warm down when schedule don't let me play for hours. I mean, then I don't need it.
    When long sessions, I just make breaks. This rest time is of a great value. I would be glad to go in the bar with Wilmer!
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2010
  3. Solar Bell

    Solar Bell Moderator Staff Member

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    In all the professional bands and orchestras I have ever seen, and in all the professional bands I have ever played in, I have NEVER seen ANYONE warm down after a performance.

    The horn goes in the case and the player goes to the bar, car, or mingles with the crowd.

    We are trumpet players, NOT runners. We must be in real bad shape if we use all of our energy up playing the trumpet. I do not think that we are burning all the sugar energy available and then burning our protein reserves.

    Go back and read Michael McLaughlin's (trpt2345) post again. And then once more.


    Anyway, warming down is something I have not observed in the real world of professional trumpet players.

    -cw-
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The muscles surrounding the lips are what we are talking about. Warming down helps me relieve tension in my face. Whether or not lactic acid plays a role, I have never investigated it.
    I benefit from a light warmup if for no other reason than knowing how much work even producing one tone is going to be. The first couple of notes are generally rough, and do not belong on stage with an audience in front of me(even if Jake got away without it). On days where I have serious trouble getting started, the cause is generally the hard playing the night before without the warmdown. I need a more intensive warmup to get things predictable.
    Chop problems can usually be sorted into 2 categories: lip swelling or muscle failure. The muscle failure part could very well have to do with lactic acid. This is a very "normal" procedure for strained muscles regardless of where they are in the human body. Trumpet playing is hard work for our face!
     
  5. wiseone2

    wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Staff Member

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    I worked day and night in the recording studios with Bernie Glow, Ernie Royal, Jimmy Maxwell and others. I have started record dates at 9 AM. after playing Village People sessions that ended at 3 AM. I did not warm down.
    It was not unusual to carry my Bb, C, Eb, Flugel and picc around all day. We sometimes left horns at Jim and Andy's. Milt Hinton left a bass there,there were assorted drum kits stashed there because sometimes there was no time to get home.
    Warmups were a luxury because the studios were always in use.
    The China Song was another place that musicians stored their stuff. Many nights I sat with Carmine Caruso winding down. John Barrows, one of the great french horn players, said he was always ready to play. He did not warm up or warm down.
    Experiment and find what works for you.
    I play a few scales, and I am ready to go. That works for me.
    I don't warm down. That works for me.
    Do what works for you. Use common sense.
    Wilmer
     
  6. tromj

    tromj Piano User

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    Ah yes, the China song. I did make it to NYC in time to hang out with Carmine there once or twice, but it was already a shadow of its former self.
    I warm down a little bit if i am beat, but I know it's mostly psychological. As I said, keeping hydrated is more important. Charlie Schleuter also does not believe in warm ups. He calls it "Checking the Templates." I remember a teacher in college telling me that when he hung out with Clark Terry, he asked about warming up. Clark told him, I play all day! I'm already warmed up.
    I am a little stuck in warming up, but not nearly as much as I used to be. The thing warming up helps me do is not overblow too soon. It's more like Charlie's idea of checking oneself to make sure the blow is right. I find Stamp is very helpful.
     
  7. Majestic

    Majestic Banned

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    - My warm- down used to be the walk to Jim and Andy's bar.

    - My warm down is put the horn in case, get in the car and put on some Jimmie Smith, Count Basie or Harry James.
    Drive home and warm down with my wife.

    - The most I do is rolling the lips in and out for a minute or so and slowly drinking in ice water over the top lip.

    - My "warm down" (I wonder why it's not called a cool down?) consists of getting something to drink and slapping some ChopSaver on my lips. I don't warm up more than playing a scale or two, either.

    - I agree, the best warm down is to put the horn in the case.

    - Chops are not muscles. Your lips are tissue. Muscles surround the lips in the embouchure (the obicularis orbis, IIRC) but your lips are not muscle. No lactic acid. This is why anaologies to sports are so bogus, they sound reasonable but are based on a fallacy. There is no need to warm down, nor (if you read jacobs) is there any need physically to warm up.

    - In all the professional bands and orchestras I have ever seen, and in all the professional bands I have ever played in, I have NEVER seen ANYONE warm down after a performance. The horn goes in the case and the player goes to the bar, car, or mingles with the crowd. We are trumpet players, NOT runners. We must be in real bad shape if we use all of our energy up playing the trumpet. I do not think that we are burning all the sugar energy available and then burning our protein reserves. Go back and read Michael McLaughlin's (trpt2345) post again. And then once more. Anyway, warming down is something I have not observed in the real world of professional trumpet players.

    - I play a few scales, and I am ready to go. That works for me.
    I don't warm down. That works for me.
    Do what works for you. Use common sense.

    The guys here really know trumpet playing. WE ARE THE EXPERTS, RIGHT, WILMER :evil: …..Then, I guess that the following people are wrong then.

    PopsTrumpetCollege (you all know pops? He's a chop Doc (Dr.)
    http://www.bbtrumpet.com/pros.html
    "And playing a really hard day should be taken care of by a warm down that day. The next day should not suffer at all."

    Pat Harbison: (Pat, it seems that CW Solar Bell does not know who you are. Don't worry, I know you.)
    http://www.patharbison.com/books.html
    "A warm-down is like a great runner walking out the kinks in his muscles after a race. A brief warm-down helps prevent stiffening of the embouchure muscles." (Michael McLaughlin said you're not support to have muscles)

    The International Trumpet Guild (ITG) [Also the ITG?!]
    Frank G. Campos, Clinic Editor – Better Practice Through Focus by Richard J. Rulli (Jan 05/45)
    "The warm-down is vitally important if you are particularly fatigued; the last thing you want to do after a difficult performance is just put the trumpet in the case and head for the post-concert festivities. Take two minutes to focus your sound and you will be amazed at how ready you are to play the next morning."

    The Syracuse University Trumpet Section (Don't tell me, a Univ also?!)
    http://wrt-intertext.syr.edu/VII/lux.html
    "They (trumpet players) are required to stay after band dismissal to warm down and hear trumpet announcements."

    Of course then this is just pure speculation that one of TM Resident Artists, Tony Kadleck, placed some value on this as well as Herseth but maybe they are not pro enough to fit into the Warm Down routine or maybe whoever wrote the following article was just dreaming.
    http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:MeBntwhYNsYJ:www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/showthread.php%3Ft%3D31304+warm+down+trumpet&hl=iw&gl=il&ct=clnk&cd=12

    Jesse McGuire, (Come on Jesse, you're probably just writing it and not doing it…tell the truth to the TM experts) Formerly lead trumpet with Wynton Marsalis and Tower of Power, in his book, Play your Trumpet with Power!, in chapter 3 deals with Warm Downs.
    http://www.jessemcguire.com/PlayPower.htm

    Conn-Selmer, Inc Trumpet Corner Discussion Group (another trumpet forum that apparently doesn't know what the TM forum experts know.)
    http://www.bachbrass.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=4140&sid=09a6516bdcddd14ff4fba74c50bc7351

    The Site Administrator
    Karl Sievers, DMA
    Professor, School of Music,
    University of Oklahoma
    Principal Trumpet, Oklahoma City Philharmonic
    Bach Artist/Clinician
    Competitions Coordinator, National Trumpet Competition

    Karl Sievers states: "warming down is often a very smart thing to do. Inevitably we get tensions going that we don't need.. trumpet is work sometimes, eh? Warming down helps set us up for good things happening tomorrow.

    David O'Neill, (know him?) in his book of Trumpet Lessons, Embuchure Formation and Warming Up teaches a Cool Down Routine as well.
    http://www.brasstrax.com/Trumpet_Lessons.htm

    Vizutti, (oh no you are not going to tell me that he is not a pro) has a new book out called New Concepts for Trumpet that deals with Warm Downs. Terrel Stafford (another pro?) stressed warm downs very much and stated that he knows someone who woke up and couldn't play one day b/c they didn't warm up or down. (There is a whole thread in TH on this subject but what does TH know that TM doesn't?)
    http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57801&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

    I see Liad has not mentioned what he knows about Warm Downs here; so, I sent him a PM and asked him if he uses Warm Downs and if he knows pros who used them. He said that he first learned about Warm Downs from Bernard Adelstein who used and required him to use The Max Schlossberg Daily Drills and Technical Studies for Trumpet book. Liad told me that Rich Szabo advised him to warm down when he was being coached on getting those double high C's.

    Then there is Chris Glazner, John Timpani, and Christian Reed (are they pro enough?) in their Trumpeter's Fanfare site: http://library.thinkquest.org/10693/practice.html
    "When it's all said and done, and you've played all you want to play, don't put up your horn. Warm Down. Remember, you are an athlete just like a runner is. When a runner finishes running a long distance, they warm down. Your lip is a muscle, and it too needs to be warmed down. Play a few long note exercises and a few pedal tones to loosen you up. Now you can put that horn in its case."

    My 2 cents: If you make your living or plan to make your living by playing a brass instrument, treat your lips as though they were rare Italian violins or like raw eggs on your head or like lit candles in dark of a winter night out side while the tornado is about to approach the Canary Islands that you are on with Miss Universe. Pamper them (the lips) and take care of them. Listen to them when they're yelling at you--when they puff up. Remember, there are no retreads for chops; so, be careful not to abuse your lips. And don't assume that because one person finds a two-hour warm up to suit his needs, that you will succeed with the exact same routine; or that if someone finds warming down to be helpful, that it will benefit you the same. No two players are exactly alike. Myself, I do horse flaps, pedal tones and let the hot water message my lips while I take a long refreshing shower. The hot water also helps my breathing muscles relax and refresh also. See, nobody mentioned the other muscles we use for playing the trumpet which are just a critical as the lips/face muscles.

    I think that I have Majestically covered this subject so well that if anybody wants to add or comment, I'll consider their intention as one to pick a fight.ROFL

    MJ
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2006
  8. MJ

    MJ Administrator Staff Member

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    My questions for some of you guys is this: Why do you use such hard to read fonts?
     
  9. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    So, your examples are meant to convey this point? I totally agree with it - what works for one person may not work for another. Thanks for including me in the first "expert" quotes. I was just saying what works for ME, but I'm happy to be lumped together with those other guys!;-)
     
  10. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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    Nice first post, Majestic. You'll find you get a whole truckload of respect for remaining anonymous and acting like a pompus know-it-all.

    :noway:
     

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