Lets get personal!

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by RobertSlotte, Sep 5, 2008.

  1. RobertSlotte

    RobertSlotte Pianissimo User

    Jul 7, 2008
    I´m an upstream player. It´s the only thing that works fo me.

    How about you guys? "streaming" up or down? :roll:

  2. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria

    [size=+2]"Just put in on the face and press till it hurts." Maurice Murphy[/size]
  3. Fluffy615

    Fluffy615 Piano User

    Nov 30, 2006
    New Jersey
    I just hope for a stream of any kind!!
  4. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 4, 2007
    I'm upstream, too.

    We don't choose which to be;
    we are born to be one or the other.

    People who mock your question are really displaying their ignorance regarding such a crucial matter.

    When I was in Junior High school decades ago I was a terrible player.
    The more I practiced and tried to imitate the best players (who just happened to be downstream players because most players are born with downstream embouchures, although at that time I had never heard of such terms)
    the worse I became.
    Then after I dropped out of band my best friend said that he thought I might be an upstream player.
    I made the appropriate adjusments in mouthpiece placement and in trumpet tilt and I had immediate, dramatic improvement.
    And with practice I increased my range an octave rather than getting worse.
    I can play High G's every day, and on some occasions have squeaked out tiny Double C's.

    People who play well without even knowing what embouchure type they are
    are living by the creed:
    "I'm the product of pure dumb luck,
    and I insist that others should rely on pure dumb luck, too,
    rather than actually learning anything about their own embouchures."

    For those who don't know that "upstream" and "downstream" mean,
    go to
    An Introduction to Donald S. Reinhardt's Pivot System
    scroll down to the middle of the very long Web page,
    read under the heading "Reinhardt's Embouchure Types".
    Type III (Type 3) is downstream. Such as Maynard Ferguson.
    Type IV (Type 4) is upstream. Such as Doc Severinsen.

    PS - My wife is of Finnish heritage.
    Her family name was originally something like "Vourijarvi", "mountain lake".
    Many Finns live in nothern Michigan and Ohio here in the United States.
    My wife introduced me to a silly Finnish song "Minoon Kultani",
    "I love my sweetheart even though she is cross-eyed, even though she is bow-legged", etc.

    - Morris
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2008
  5. BergeronWannabe

    BergeronWannabe Piano User

    Feb 6, 2007
    Neither...I'm straight! :cool:
    Or at least I think I am-
  6. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria
    Morris, with all due respect, we do know what we are, but up or down, one or the other does not make me a better player. I don't use the pivot system either, but this does not prevent me to play reliably up to top G...I can squizze a double C, but being an orhestral player, never had to do that. I know many good players, who do not use the pivot system, but still doing great. Of course there are also those, who use the pivot system and play well as well..I don't really see your point.
  7. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 4, 2007
    You obviously have no idea what the Pivot System is.

    It is not something that Reinhardt "invented".
    He simply did a close examination of the embouchures of a multitude of successful brass players.
    He discovered that different people are born with different embouchure types, and that each embouchure type does well when doing certain things in a certain way.

    Every person is born with one of the embouchure types that Reinhardt discovered in his examinations of hundreds of players.
    Even if that person does not know that he has a certain embouchure type, he plays with that embouchure type that he was born with, nevertheless.
    Maynard Ferguson was playing with Type 3 long before Reinhardt discovered Type 3.
    Doc Severinsen was playing with Type 4 long before Reinhardt discovered Type 4.

    "I know many good players, who do not use the pivot system, but still doing great"

    They are doing exactly what is outlined in Reinhardt's examinations,
    but they just do not realize that they are doing it.
    Your statement is like someone who says "I have never studied anatomy and thus I do not bother to use my lungs while breathing".
    Just because you do something unconsciously does not mean that you are not doing it.

    Why should a trumpet player bother to know his own embouchure type?
    Just as I described in my school experience of decades ago.
    I was trying to imitate the mouthpiece placement and trumpet tilt of the best players in our school band, but that just made my playing worse.
    Only when I discovered that I was born with a different embouchure type did I change everything to the "upside-down" of how the other players in the band were doing it and then enjoy immediate, dramatic improvement.

    Maynard Ferguson gave Donald Reinhardt a blank check to have Reinhardt teach Ferguson's son.
    I held the check in my own hands when Reinhardt visited Kansas City in the early 1970's.
    Ferguson had no idea that he had been using a Type 3 embouchure all those years, but then Ferguson acknowledged the truth of the matter when it was shown to him.
    And Doc Severinsen would have been one crappy player if he had tried to imitate Ferguson's mouthpiece placement and trumpet tilt, because Severinsen was born with the opposite embouchure type. (Just as I was a crappy plyer when I tried to imitate the methods of downstream players.)

    Each and every player should experiment with mouthpiece placement and trumpet tilt to find out what works best for him as an individual.
    And when the player does that, he is identifying his embouchure type as per Reinhardt, even if he has never heard of Reinhardt.

    - Morris
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2008
  8. MJ

    MJ Administrator Staff Member

    Jan 30, 2006
    I'm a 3C
    Schwab likes this.
  9. bigtiny

    bigtiny Mezzo Forte User

    Aug 14, 2005
    Yeah Nick. You don't know anything man. For instance, I'll bet you don't even know that according to Dr. Fleezlabobbin you're a type 9 breather. That's because you don't know anything about Dr. Fleezlaboobbin's method. He observed how trumpet players breathe and then categorized all the different 'types' of breathing. So, whether you know it or not, you breathe according to Dr. Fleezlabobbin's system....you dummy! It's obvious you didn't even know that! And if you did, then it would have great significance to you, because then you'd know that and you'd have Dr. Fleezlabobbin's system to help you structure your concept of how your breathe and how that relates to your trumpet playing, even though you didn't even know that you NEEDED to know that Dr. Fleezlabobbin had conceived of trumpet players' breathing patterns in this way! It's a good thing that he did too, cause if he hadn't, you probably wouldn't even be able to play a note! You'd have quit a couple of months in out of frustration, even though you weren't aware that the good Dr. had done this for you.

    So get your act together man!

    MJ likes this.
  10. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria

    I do know what is the pivot system, and do know what Reinhardt did. I am just not interested in this info as I don't really see how would that help anyone, though it maybe curious. We already had a discussion on embouchure types and if you bother to use the search feature you will see that I am not the only one who does not care that much about labels. The "M' embouchure does it all, no matter what is your embouchure type.

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