Lip Problem

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by jeeper31, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    Right. That's the formula ..... RfRfdrfdrdfddddB! = lip nirvana. Memorize it. Apply. Repeat.

    Hey doc, I'm getting the hang of this prescription thing. I just need to work on making my signature unreadable.

    Turtle
     
  2. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    That's EASY! Ok, here is the medical school secret of secrets: Put the pen between your lips, now start flutter tonguing. THAT'S IT... YOU GOT IT!! Only 2 more facts you need to learn AND YOU HAVE YOUR MD!!
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that we have a combination of things here.

    We are creatures of habit. We practice at home in relatively small rooms and get used to how we sound. The brain develops expectations and tells the muscles how to behave. I will disagree with the stand that muscle is muscle. For our fine motor activity (like lip activity or writing) we have a considerably different connection to the brain. That alone makes the reaction time and feedback to the brain considerably different than the leg muscles for running for instance. There is FAR more involved than just type of muscle fiber and it behavior when hydrated/dehydrated.

    In any case, you are now on stage, where your brain is not getting the info that it is used to (not to mention the "competition" from the other instrumepnts that play in the same frequency range as a trumpet - Guitar, Keyboard,.....), you are probably playing much more loudly than ever before and if you are using a monitor, your sound is "colored" by the microphone, speakers and playback volume and your brain no longer knows what to tell the muscles. You play more loudly, but really can't hear yourself any better. The result: your body doesn't talk to you anymore - it is YELLING back. The symptom: you feel like nothing is working (your brain agrees with you here too).

    Playing with PA needs to be practiced to shape the expectations of the ear/brain. No habits, no joy.
     
  4. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    Good, I need a new career ..... I'm not making anything as a trumpet player.:-(


    Turtle
     
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    This is all very true, but take away the nervous system and the connections to the brain, the muscle fibers will behave the same way when strained and the result can be temporary injury or extend to further damage strain, sprain...; it is how our body responds to damage, to try to minimize further injury while maintaining structure to keep some function. The problem is that when it comes to fine tuned and coordinated sets of muscle, the injury may be less forgiving.

    So listen to what Rowuk says: which is to listen to your brain, and back off when you first feel strain - loss of note control. Then you will recover much faster, and even perhaps be able to finish the gig. USE THE PA SYSTEM. IT IS YOUR FRIEND.
     
  6. guitarsrmine

    guitarsrmine Piano User

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    Welcome back to the trumpet world,jeeper31 !!! I, too, took an extended break from the trumpet of 25 years(So EXTREMELY STOOOOOOOPID DECISION!!!) and 3 years ago, when I started my comeback,(I even had to buy a new horn!!) I started off gradually. 15 minutes practice, then a couple days increase to a half hour, then eventually to an hour a day(when my job permits that!!) And it was tough going, and I wasnt near ready to play out in public for a long time. But, 3 years later, I play at church, I play with my band,set-in with other bands, and things are going really good!!! Im very pleased with my tone, and my range is well beyond what it was when I stopped playing years ago !! You received some very good advice on here.....USE IT!!! LOL Ive posted so many"Hey,can you help me with this" topics that this site is one of my everyday stops while surfing the net!!! Good luck with your lip issues!!! Isnt it great that we can find so much sound advice here?? I thank everyone who's helped me along the way!!!! GOD bless you, my friend!!:play:
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem is that we CAN'T take away the brain. Especially the function of the face is unique. We have lip tissue with countless nerves and underneath a specific muscle geometry that count on the brain for control of the minute variations needed to play well. There is interaction with the rest of the face (ever tried to play with a cold or a toothache?), upper body, breathing system, skeleton. In my experience, the face muscles are almost NEVER the problem. The problem is essentially always the servo loop between our ears, brain, muscle that generate the sound for further ear, brain, muscle activity. The second "problem" is almost always breathing. Crappy breathing means more muscle compensation - out of the common sense servo loop.

    The potential damage to the muscles is also different. We are not "lifting" things out of range. Sprains or torn ligaments/tendons are not common like with the legs/arms. In the case of playing, less experienced players can even substitute unfavorable for favorable behavior to get the job done. Pressure for instance can provide a couple of extra notes until the geometry collapses. Our playing is not based on brute strength however. It is based on a working servo loop when we can hear to feed the brain signals it can reference to previously developed habits and then instruct muscle to move (minimally restricted) tissue into the correct place to get the sound, volume and pitch that we have commited to habit.

    Successful players play a lot in the environment that they perform in - either with tons of gigs or tons of practice. Occasional "too damn loud" will confuse all of the above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2011
  8. coolerdave

    coolerdave Utimate User

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    I remember playing in a Rock band and it was very loud..+1 on Robin's assessment... you try to hear yourself but at that volume and all the instruments competing for that frequency...over blowing and strain.
    My reccomendation, after your lip heals is to make sure you play warm ups and then check out your set up...
    I would also add a range exercise into your daily routine.
    You need some brilliance to cut so perhaps a mp that will brighten your tone. A shallower cup will tend to do that.
    A dark horn is great for a jazz combo but unless you are really good might make it hard in a rock setting. So maybe you could use a brighter horn.
    Also watch the pressure..you might be trying to play like you use to when your chops were stronger and compensating with pressure
    What are you using for mp and horn?
    and also warm down after you play .. something like slow arpeggios from middle C down to pedel C is what I use.
    Glad to her you are playing again
     
  9. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    To me, these comments seem to be in conflict. This concept is also in conflict with what we know medically about muscle physiology. Two words prove my point: Satchmo Syndrome. This is the worse situation along the muscle damage spectrum. Please read the following post:

    Medscape: Medscape Access
     
  10. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    This is why I like having 2 main trumpets ..... Even though the Recording is my fav overall, the Severinsen will cut through just about anything. I've been trying to make the Recording brighter, when I want it to be, but it only goes so far for me. For now, it's easier to go for the Getzen. Occasionally, the dark Recording just disappears into the mix.


    Turtle


    And Rowuk, I'm really understanding through your interesting postings the need to practice in larger spaces (like your future venues if possible) to advance, but is there any way to "fake out" your brain into thinking that your tiny practice space is really a larger club or concert sized space ...... even if it ends up hurting your ears??? I can't seem to find any volume in the practice room.:dontknow:
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2011

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