lip trills

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by weiss017, May 22, 2005.

  1. weiss017

    weiss017 New Friend

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    May 22, 2005
    Minneapolis
    Hi!

    I'm having trouble learning how to do classical lip trills (i.e., as one would encounter in baroque music).

    I've only recently learned how to do a coarse "shake" for some big band jazz music I play, and I'm wondering whether anything I've learned with this might be transferable.

    Any suggestions for helping me learn lip trills?

    Thanks!

    A devoted amateur
     
  2. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Weiss,

    What I notice about people's first forays into classical style lip trill is that they are too shy when they blow into the horn. It's as if they think that only a certain volume level is acceptable and past that is out of character. To a certain extent they're right but in starting to learn the lip trill you need a few things.

    The first is a really good example to listen to. I must say that the recordings of Rafael Mendez are exemplary if you want to hear a lip trill that sounds like a fine soprano singing. I can't stress this enough. You must hear excellent examples not just average ones.

    Second, as you ascend from middle register lip trills do so with as much speed as you can muster and lots of sound. You have to strengthen the supporting facial muscles and speed and volume together really help.

    Third, avoid trying to overcontrol the function of the internal workings of the mouth. In other words, Don't pay too much attention to the OO-EE business. That's why the aural component of all this is so important. You have to emphasize the product not the process to sound like an artist. You should be focusing on a clear sound and crispness of the notch. OO-EE tends to create a jazzy, gliss quality that's character that's right for a certain style of music but not for the classical gliss you're wiriting about.

    Fourth, also work on playing the trill with the normal fingerings as well. It's a good challenge for you and something you should be able to do anyway.

    Page 44 of the Arban book. Get busy, friend.

    ML
     
  3. dbacon

    dbacon Mezzo Piano User

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    Oct 24, 2003
    Scottsdale, AZ.
    I love the Walter Smith Lip Flex for trills, it's the classic Arban exercise but written well into the high register. His complete Lip Flex book I think is often overlooked these days, that section on Glissando alone will help your mechanics as much as anything!
     
  4. Tarter_trpt8

    Tarter_trpt8 Pianissimo User

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    Jan 17, 2005
    St. Paul, MN
    What about slurs of more than a 4th and such with the same fingering? Does the tongue do anything different in those situtions in oder to make it a clean slur without getting the added partial in there?
     
  5. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Jeremy,

    To do the wider interval slurs, the tongue must stay quiet and the throat very open, Allow the lips to provide the needed interval by ordering the musical product. In other words, by overusing the tongue you will get a glissy sound that is squeezed between notes. This is the way the majority of brassplayers play, by squeezing between intervals. It is not as attractive a sound but many people swear by it.

    I prefer putting as much "H" in the wind as possible. HOH-HOH as opposed to HOH-EE. The sound is more consistent from note to note because you're keeping the throat more open. You can tell when someone is doing it wrong by looking at the top of the neck just under the chin when they slur wider than a 4th or 5th. You can see the throat closing and opening between notes. The better players don't do this. You see little if any movement bewteen notes.

    There are some slurs early in the Arban book... about page 26 or so, I think. They are in half notes and go g-d, g-d, c... c-g,c-g, f... etc. Wherever you can play those intervals on the same valve combo, do it. G-D using 1 and 3 for instance.

    Again, the most important teacher is the ear for a musician. Listen to great playing and imitate what you hear. The process is less important if you are really good at imitating great playing.

    ML
     
  6. ponce

    ponce New Friend

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    Nov 9, 2003
    New York
    Manny, what advice can you offer for the 3rd space C to D trill? I ask this in this thread, because even though this is ultimately a valved trill, it feels more like a lip trill to folks who are just getting the hang of it. At least it did to me many years ago when I was first mastering it.

    Another question I have is, can you explain exactly what is going on when one who has completely mastered the lip trill makes the trill seem as if it is going all by itself? I liken it to when your knee starts shaking, sometimes it just shakes on its own. Not sure if this is an appropriate analogy. Of course the air support is what powers the trill, but is there or is there not almost a way of locking the lips into correct position so that they seem to enable the lips to take over on their own?
     
  7. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Ponce,

    The more I write about it, the more I emphasize the openess of the throat. Keeping that good yawn is important in this regard. Y'know why I think people close off? I think it's from the initial reaction to getting that fracky sound when the notes aren't centered so people tghten up and sqqueeze to eliminate the unpleasant sound. Rather, they should practice maintaining a solid sound for both notes. This strengthens the corners and teaches the embouchure to stay stable. The sound eventually clears up as long as the student is persistent and as long as the feedback from an authority figure, like a band director, is not negative. Making a face or making a young player feel bad because the sound he produces is less than stellar can hurt a students desire to be persistent. He'll look for a quick fix that maybe doesn't sound optimal but doesn't get the nasty scowl from a teacher, parent, peer, whatever.

    So, anyway, this applies to the trill as well as the slurs. Chin down, breathe big, and release the tone after you've captured it in your mind.

    ML
     
  8. weiss017

    weiss017 New Friend

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    May 22, 2005
    Minneapolis
    Hi, me again.

    I've tried what you suggested: I've brought out Arban page 44 (again); I've also listened to a great Mendez example. On the Lakme Bell Song, at the very end, Mendez starts a fast lip slur from high C to D, and slowly accelerates. At a certain point, he seems to switch from a fast slur to a trill.

    Arban seems to be set up for me to increase the speed of my lip slurs.

    Questions:

    1. How can I get past that point? (i.e., the moment in time when a fast lip slur becomes a lip trill)

    2. Is there a physical difference between a fast lip slur and a lip trill?

    Peter, the devoted amateur (again)
     
  9. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Weiss,

    You'll be glad to know the solution is easy although it takes time. You increase the speed of the lip trill as the exercises are written. Rest for one measure after the end of the line and begin the same trill at the speed you ended at. Then, when you run out of breath, rest two measures and do the same. The idea is that you're teaching yourself to play the trill "cold".

    Yes, there's a difference between the two techniques. One is controlled by the lips on a conscious level whereas the other should feel more like a single tone disrupted by the finger action.

    If you want to continue to improve, keep listening as you have been and allow that to be your spark of inspiration.

    ML
     

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