Live sound

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Penstir, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. coolerdave

    coolerdave Utimate User

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    I would do what Patrick suggest first. It is more natural and comfortable plus you don't introduce the problems inherent with small electronics.. batteries, broken wires.
    When I use to play in a rock band I found location in relationship to the other instruments was really important ... NEVER in front of guitar or keyboard. I preferred to be as far back as I could be, next to the drummer and on the bass amp side of the set.
     
  2. Penstir

    Penstir New Friend

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    thanks coolerdave, yes i try in front of the bass amp usually, far back as possible sounds interesting!
     
  3. Penstir

    Penstir New Friend

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    and thanks Mike,
    love the bit about if you dont get what you ask for prepare to be ignored! and love the idea of keeping it simple, I do also think I prefer the 58 to 57, have never been sure why and then often told as a horn player to use the 57...
    And medium volume sounds critical...
    lovely weekend to all, off to play with the noisy geetars in Melbourne armed with great ideas and "im not alone!"
    pen
    ps...trickg Im sadly not handy but have found and purchased one! Gee i will look forward to seeing how the lips go!
     
  4. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Good on you Penny! It's going to make a big difference - just wait and see!

    On a side note, I was looking at mine tonight, I think that this one is actually the "upgrade" version - I believe this one is actually made out of Lexan - not Plexiglas. Lexan doesn't yellow as it ages like Plexiglas will. If I recall correctly, my Plexiglas sound shield got busted in a car wreck - I had my Reunion Blues triple bag in the back of the car and I got into a pretty bad collision on my way to a gig one night back in 1998. Totaled my car, put a slight bend in my Manhassett music stand and broke my sound shield, but my horn was amazingly unscathed.

    Edit: I should mention that the collision was not my fault - a guy pulled out in front of me from a flashing red and I T-boned him going about 50 mph. Fortunately we both walked away from it.
     
  5. treble_forte

    treble_forte Pianissimo User

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    After tonight's beating (3 days in a row of bad sound) I just placed an order for:

    Mixer, 2 DIs with link outs, a monitor (actually a bass combo (I play bass too, and wanted to have something multi-purpose): Hartke A35 - I will make and add a tweeter extension if I need it. That's easy).

    So I will split the brass mics 2 ways: to my mixer/amp and to the main mixer/amp. There is never an issue hearing the rest of the band, just horns, so I will only feed brass through my speaker. If I want a monitor mix from the main desk I can add it with one lead. I can also have in-ears if I want with this setup :)

    I think tomorrow will be a light day. I have been hitting it hard the last week.

    Keep us informed how you do! Those shields are great but they have a narrow angle where they work. I think a good starting point is to set the shield so you can see your face when you stand where you play. Work from there and see what sounds best!

    Mike
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Penny,

    Like the with getting used to a trumpet, getting used to a microphone is a critical part of the way we practice when amplified venues are our destiny.

    Regardless which microphone you finally decide on, practice with it, get used to its directionality and proximity effect (sounds thicker when you play directly into it). Get used to asking for a foldback volume and balance that works with your ears,

    The advantage to dynamic microphones like the Shure SM 57 series is that they are relatively insensitive to the distance between the bell and the microphone. Condenser microphones require a more constant distance. I really like the clipon AKG C519 condenser microphone. I am connected with a cable, but the sound is phenomenal and no sound engineer has ever complained. No reflectors needed.
     
  7. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    ...as long as the bell and mic are in a direct straight line. After about a 20 degree angle stray from being straight in front of the mic, the sound drops off rapidly, nicht wahr?
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually I was talking more about the distance between the bell and SM57. Yes, cardoid microphones do tend to ignore signals coming from the side. Omnidirectional mics tend to feedback........

     
  9. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Rowuk, this seems to be one time when you might not be completely on top of the subject at hand. :-)

    Cardioid is a pattern of microphone pickup - it's not limited to dynamic microphones - there are condensers that pick up in a cardioid pattern as well, and it basically means that the pickup pattern is good at side and rear rejection. The clip on Shure Beta 98 I use is a condenser mic that utilizes a cardioid pickup pattern. My current vocal mic, a Shure Beta 87, is a super cardioid mic, but it's also a condenser mic, not a dynamic microphone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardioid

    Regarding proximity effect, that is less about whether you are playing directly into the mic and more about the distance you are from the mic. The Shure SM57/58 are known for their low end boost with close proximity (i.e., distance) but due to the fact that they are also cardioid pattern microphones, they are also effected by whether you are on or off axis, meaning whether or not you are playing directly into the mic head vs playing off at an angle.

    With the proximity effect, I find that dynamic mics absolutely are sensitive to the distance between the bell and the mic. Back when I was primarily using an SM57 or 58 for my horn mic (we used 58s in the Latin band) I did a bit of "mic dynamics" - I could effectively decrescendo by backing away from the mic, and I could crescendo by moving in toward it. Typically I'd want to be pretty much up on it, 6 inches or so away from it. Also, due to the proximity effect of those mics, if you moved in too closely, it would drastically color the sound with the low end boost that the 57/58 are known for. With vocals, utilizing the proximity effect of the 57/58 can be a good thing though because the sound pressure levels are lower, and it can add a nice richness to your voice.

    Regarding the cardioid pickup pattern, and being either on or off axis, a lot of people don't understand that and it's apparent when you watch someone speak or sing into one - they don't realize that by holding the mic vertically and speaking or singing at the side of the mic head that they get a great deal of coloration of the sound, not to mention a drop off of mic level, by doing so. It's also VERY apparent when we give the mic to people at weddings for their speeches and toasts - it's unreal the number of people who will drop a cardioid pattern mic to below the middle of their chests (and sometimes lower) and have no clue that the sound doesn't just magically descend from their mouths into the microphone. The only thing that saves us is that we're able to jack the gain up to capture it without causing feedback, thanks to some good compression, gating and EQ that prevents it.

    For live sound, the simplest solution is a cardioid pattern dynamic microphone such as an SM57. Gain structure is easier to control, and it's less sensitive to how much ambient sound is in the room.
     
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    ...which could be construed as another form of "bell's palsy":think:
     

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