lower lip curling under.....thoughts from teachers!

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by paulyb123, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. paulyb123

    paulyb123 New Friend

    Sep 25, 2008
    I will have a look at the Laureano posts but surely shouldnt we be trying to use more Eee vowel sounds in the upper register? Although tooh has the effect of having that indirect help of creating a more solid pucker....Very interesting post...thanks. I will do some research for my own benefit as well!
  2. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

    Jun 11, 2006
    I also curl the lower lip over the bottom teeth. It is somewhat like the wolf whistle.
    The Maggio method mentions this happening.
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I still see no reason to have the teeth lined up. There is no advantage. The top and bottom of the mouthpiece have something to rest against regardless of type of embouchure and the sides are free to "pucker" more or less, there is no reason for the sides to be backed up with teeth. If we are playing without excessive pressure, the lips are in motion over the whole surface of the mouthpiece.

    There is also no REQUIREMENT for EEH the higher that we play. There are methods that advocate this, but also many fine players that can produce a double C using Tooh.

    I can appreciate trying to get the best out of every player, I think many times embouchure changes destroy more than they help. That time could have been spent on long tones and slurs with far greater results.
  4. KJaeger

    KJaeger Pianissimo User

    Oct 27, 2004
    Colorado Springs, CO
    For me, trying to achieve the "eeh" tended to spread my embouchure and led to the "smile and press" approach. "tOOh" or "tOh" fixed that without any conscious lip or tongue manipulation. Also, I get better results when I feel like the sound production is occurring "out front" of the embouchure vs in my mouth or throat (don't know if that is what's really happening but the image produces the resonant sound I am looking for). "OOh" or "Oh" helps with that while "eeeh" tends to inhibit it.

    I want to emphasize that I agree with everyone about being careful messing around with an embouchure. I'm just sharing my experience that this concept I think indirectly made positive changes in my embouchure without consciously focusing on it. I used to tie myself in knots overanalyzing how my chops worked and it kept me from just making music. Some people might need a totally different stimulus, or this might not work for their particular set of physical attributes.

    I'll add that I'm sure my lips are curling somehow, some way, at some point. Focusing on the syllable and the sound for me just helps the physical stuff happen naturally and appropriately.

    I feel strongly that the essence of great teaching is finding the appropriate pedagogical "hook" that works for each individual...
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2008
  5. paulyb123

    paulyb123 New Friend

    Sep 25, 2008
    Its funny how my initial question automatically made people think about the dreaded embouchure change question! I didn't want to imply the question "how do teachers change students embouchures?" and like every other sensible teacher out there I avoid any chop changes!

    How about this for a further thought for you..... Airspeed for me is the most important aspect when playing high. When I play higher....(for example when practising a lip flexibility exersise) I put a great deal of my thought processes into keeping the blow constant from the area I call the breathing muscles......Therefore the tongue position for me is the mechanism that inceases the airspeed i.e. it arches or raises up inside the mouth. It is easier for me to get the tongue higher by using Eeeh rather than Oooh(even the it is perfectly possible,like you say to increase airspeed using Oooh)

    When I am teaching I have always taught students (many of them are young...10 or 11 years old) to think of Taaw/Tooh/Teeh helps them visualize the position of the tongue better? Rather than thinking Tooh for all of the registers and raising the tongue within the one syllable (hope that makes sense?) for the various registers even though there are obvious further subtleties when beginning a slur on a high note and going even higher....what do you think?
  6. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria
    Robin, can you elaborate on this?

    I was told that line up was necessary to equalise more or less the use of the lips, so neither of both has to strain too much or get excessive pressure. I have observed that most beginner and amateur players who use an excessive downstream embouchure (they hold the trumpet almost like a clarinet) do get serious problems in the high register...
    RobertSlotte likes this.
  7. RobertSlotte

    RobertSlotte Pianissimo User

    Jul 7, 2008
    Be carefull here now guys with your advises. Do not make the tings you write sound like it is the only way that will work for the student this thread is about.
    Advise is GOOD and usefull but donĀ“t make it sound like "this is the only thing that will work" becouse we are all built different.
  8. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

    Jun 11, 2006
    I noticed tonight I don't have to do the lower lip curl for a high C. I know I do it higher.

    Just to make this interesting I'll add the fourth tongue level...Taaw/Tooh/Teeh/Tich

    The fourth was demonstrated by Adam Rappa and Chris Jaudes at ITG 2008. Adam calls it "crimping the hose."

    From Carlton McBeth's book on the Maggio method page 20
    Tah from third space C down.
    Tay is C# to Eb going up
    Tee is forth space E to high Bb.
    Tich is high B on up. Pronounce syllable with the tongue in a hissing fashion (Tich).

    Page 24 shows the monkey with the lip formation.

    1. mouth piece placement.....
    2. corners.....
    3. Lips together
    4. bottom lip slightly under and behind the top lip.
    5. buzz.......

    Here is another description page 55
    1. whistle
    2. retain the forward position of the lip
    3. with the index finger, push the center of the bottom lip up and behind the top lip so as to close the opening. (This is my interpretation of lower lip curl. I could be wrong.)
    9. buzz down toward the cleft in the chin. (I include this one for the upstream players.)

    I may have to read this book again. A larger print version would help.
  9. BobbyM

    BobbyM New Friend

    Oct 6, 2008
    I'll add my new $0.02 worth in also. In my years of teaching and playing trumpet, I have always tried to influence my students with the idea of laying the lips against the teeth and working for a good buzz with that formation. Folding the bottom lip over the bottom teeth seemed to force the student to play downsteam and most of the time and eventually hit that wall of resistance. If you fold your bottom lip over the bottom teeth and try and buzz different registers, you seem to find a quick resistence. Students quickly become discouraged.. Remember the red of the lips is what vibrates the white creates resistance.
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    There is a thread about "airspeed" here at TM and like most other things trumpet, there was no universal agreement.

    My take is that airspeed is a myth. How do I justifiy this? easy: play a long tone low C count the seconds until you are out of air, do the same for middle and high C (or double C). What are the results? The higher you go, the longer you can hold the tone out. If we consider that the aperature gets smaller the higher we play, it makes sense that we could hold out longer. It does defeat the theory about airspeed. Faster air would be gone quicker!
    With that gone, let's examine what mechanisms that we have for range:
    1) Lip compression: this makes the lip tissue "harder" and resonate at a higher frequency
    2) higher efficiency of the trumpet/mouthpiece for the upper register. This generally means higher back pressure from the horn, but less work.
    3) higher air pressure: simply blow harder. There are various techniques for this. That pressure needs either more lip compression or a more efficient resonance system otherwise the lips fall into the cup.
    There is something here that is often conveniently forgotten: the trumpet is a resonant system. The air that we blow through the horn are NOT the air particles that project into the room and "carry" the sound. The sound waves function like dominos, the vibrating air particles bumping into their neighbors and transferring the energy.
    The real reason that trumpets have the resistance that they have is to let the player use up the air in a breathing cycle that lets us phrase but not suffocate from backed up air.

    The sound waves in the trumpet create, due to the shape of the horn, a standing wave that reflects from the bell back to the mouthpiece providing the "intonation" and "slotting" as well as the back pressure that supports our lips. The less playing resistance, the more control that we need to keep our chops from falling into the mouthpiece.

    A well trained, pliable lip mass with good control of the face muscles provides an efficient geometry for creating sound. That combined with proper breathing can give us more than enough range to accomplish what we need to normally play.

    Extreme high register is a specialty that requires more "efficiency" in form of an optimally trained embouchure, special breathing techniques and optimized equipment. All three of those factors are required. High range can be relatively easily learned for those that can leave the macho blow the wall concept behind them. The secret is to keep relaxed. If we are not beating our face up, our tone just keeps getting thinner the higher that we go. That is good in the beginning. With continual training with this type of embouchure, the high range develops naturally over a period of time.
    Players that that run into a wall, are generally trying to short circuit the training procedure, replacing brains with FORCE.

    The biggest difference acoustically between a teeh and a tooh is in the head of the player. The oral cavity is exactly the same size, and because our PLAYING airspeed is not influenced by the tongue position, we are pehaps only changing the "color" of the sound with this technique.

    Trumpet players are masters of self deception. That is why myths do not go away.

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