Marc Ridenours's tweeqers

Discussion in 'Trumpet Repair and Modification' started by RG111, May 22, 2007.

  1. martromba

    martromba New Friend

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    Sep 2, 2006
    Chicago
    First of all, thanks to Roy for getting this discussion going on TrumpetMaster. After reading the posts there are a couple of ideas that I would like to expand and clarify. For those who have not seen my website, you can find it at:

    TweeQerzone.biz.


    1. The idea for TweeQers came to me as I began to wonder whether the patches that I had on my CSO Mt Vernon were just cosmetic or whether there was an acoustic function to their existence. After having proto-types custom made, it was clear that adding inertial mass in the form of clip-on patches made a difference, sometimes in a negative way but also sometimes in a mind-boggling way which I think Roy has experienced.

    2. I also used used lead tape in the same places that I use TweeQers. There is a difference. The additional weight that TweeQers add is a different principle than Monette's concept. My theory is that weight (inertial mass) added to the weakest part of the horn( bends of tubing) adds to the attractiveness and efficiency of the sound. Weight added to every part of the horn will have some positive effects but also many negatives in my opinion. In the end, as musicians who play on acoustic instruments, our focus on sound should be on the sound of the instrument at the back of the hall as opposed to how it sounds where we sit. People always commented to me how dark and round Bud's sound was in Orchestra Hall. I can witness to you that his sound as I heard it sitting beside him was extremely brilliant (some people would say bright and zippy).

    3. For a while now I have been thinking that my perceived diminished air capacity was due to the fact that I was getting older and not working as much to keep it at maximum capacity. I now think that what I have experienced as lack of air capacity is air efficiency in the horn. Since the TweeQers on my horn help it to be less resistant, I am actually using more air. Whatever your likes or dislikes about instrument resistance, TweeQers also give the added option of allowing you to customize the amount of resistance you feel. By adding them to places that don't necessarily need them, they create resistance. If I put 2 elbows on each slide crooks and add the port(small) TweeQers everywhere they fit, I would not recognize the "feel" of my horn. Several years ago Phil Smith sent his Bach to Wayne Tanabe at the Brass Bow to have it overhauled. Wayne added silver patches in spots where the metal had begun to wear. When Phil got the horn back and played it, he did not recognize it. He sent it back to Wayne and had the patches taken off.

    4. I know $85 might seem like a lot of money to spend on voo-doo. In my 30 or so years playing professionally, I have not run into any product that effects the sound of the trumpet in such a dramatic way. You will spend much more on custom mouthpieces, different leadpipes, etc. TweeQers is a product with a simple axiom: added reinforcement were it is needed most will result in the most dramatic change. I am amazed at the difference 2 port TweeQers added to the tuning slide on my CSO Mt Vernon C trumpet makes.
    A couple of days ago I demonstrated for Jay Friedman the sound of my horn with the TQs off the tuning slide and then on. He was shocked at the difference.

    I haven't asked for permission to give out all the names of those who have TweeQers now but I can say that Bud has endorsed them. Need I say more?

    The best way to be convinced is to actually hear the difference. I have been doing demos when the CSO is on tour or when I have travelled. If you are interested in a demo, I would be happy to try to work something out with you and your students or other players in your area. When I played with Cincinnati in March I met with some players in Lexington arranged by Mark Clodfelter. After Mark tried them first, I had player after player want to try them out. Vince DiMartino and John Rommel were also in on the act and both purchased a set. You can email me at [email protected] to set up a demostration in your city.

    Mark Ridenour
    Chicago Symphony
     
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  2. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    May 29, 2007
    Thanks for posting Mark! In General where is the best place on the trumpet to start with the Tweeqers.

    In your experience where do players find the most improvement with say a Bach or Yamaha C Trumpet. (for example)
     
  3. RG111

    RG111 Piano User

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    Nov 12, 2003
    Update for those interested. I received a second set of tweeQers from Mark , and added them to my Bach ML Bb. Amazing difference. Even my students hear the difference!
    Roy Griffin
     
  4. martromba

    martromba New Friend

    18
    1
    Sep 2, 2006
    Chicago
    tatakata

    The two basic theories of why the TweeQers work is very simple. 1. Add inertial mass(weight) to the weakest part of the instrument, which is on the outside of any tubing that is bent. If you happen to find a "resonance node", as I call them, where you clip a TweeQer, that position should make the biggest difference because of theory #1. The vibrations that happen to reflect off that area will be more focused and move through the instrument more efficiently. Since I am not a physicist or engineer, this explanation is my simple way of rationalizing why these little silver clips work.

    The questions are endless. Here's one for you to respond to. I have heard from many people then got to experience it myself that Bud had a big beautiful dark sound when you heard him in Orchestra Hall. I noticed that sitting beside him gave me the opposite impression. His sound when I sat beside him was incredibly bright and sometimes bordering on crass. Why was that?

    Looking forward to your ideas, TM's.

    Mark Ridenour
     
  5. jcstites

    jcstites Mezzo Forte User

    810
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    Jun 1, 2005
    Tallahassee, FL
    This is when I bought mine. It was a little intimidating playing excerpts in front of all these guys, lol.


    I have kept them on my C for over a month now and haven't thought about putting them on my Bb, until last night. I was playing this rehearsal that required playing more lead/commercial type broadway show tunes, etc. This is not my usual thing.

    So I'm playing on my curry 1z and not exactly pleased with how things are feeling. Halfway through, I pull the tweeqers off my c and put 4 on my Bb. I notice the core is back, and I immediately get the hand from the conductor. I didn't feel as if I was playing any differently, but the core of the sound was just huge. For the rest of the rehearsal I could just lay back and let it sing. I guess you could say I love these little "voodoo clips" :)

    Thanks Mark!


    I really want to hear some ideas about this. I had the same type of experience sitting next to Lou Ranger the past 2 summers. Sitting next to him and sitting in the audience proved two totally different experiences. I could not figure out how he did it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Germany
    Mark,
    There is a relatively simple answer for the difference in sound up close and far away:
    If you are sitting behind the horn or NEXT to someone playing (who plays with "projection"), what you hear is very much influenced by the vibrations coming off of the OUTSIDE of the bell. Whether one considers those vibrations good or bad is not the issue here. They do represent an acoustical inefficiency however, as that "energy" is not radiated in the direction of the audience, rather to the sides and back towards the player.

    The sound that the audience hears is primarily what comes out of the front of the horn - minus the high frequencies that are sucked up by the string section and by the absorption of air.

    If we use Bud Herseth with "his" C-trumpet as an example: the dark round versus the bright zippy sound up close shows that the "projection" of high frequencies is much less efficient than the fundemental and lower harmonics. It shows also that the Bach bell lets quite a bit of "energy" escape which provides a substantially different aural experience up close. I would venture to say that that "energy" is what Bud perceived as "his" sound and a more or less efficient set up would not have given him that same feedback he was used to hearing. That is why it is so difficult to play-test horns in a music store - you only have the picture up close. The crass part that you experienced is a combination of that "lost" energy, early reflections off of the music stand (that also resonate) and body noises.

    This is also what is different about the heavier trumpets (like Monette). They radiate less energy back toward the player and more towards the audience. They are much more efficient, but do not give the player as much immediate information. The player must become accustomed to this different "feedback" otherwise their playing will not match the ensemble. Our ears ultimately determine what we do to shape our sound. Until the entire system is programmed into our brain, the results are not predictable.

    Your TweeQers probably work in two different ways. One decreases the amount of energy transmitted by certain outside surfaces of the horn by increasing mass. This lowers the resonant frequency of that part. The second probability is that they act like bracing - bridging two vibrating parts and cancelling or reducing the vibrations through the connection.

    As with my Bud Herseth example, the difference will be certainly more audible up close. When you change the feedback pattern of the horn, your brain adjusts and THAT probably accounts for the audible difference in FRONT of the horn. If TweeQers make the horn more efficient by limiting losses, that could make playing less work. If they just change the feedback, the player will have to work harder until they become accustomed to the difference. It would be very difficult to set up a double blind test to really "prove" additional efficiency or not. Your happy customers represent good field testing though.

    Your TweeQers perhaps apply critical damping or bracing that the manufacturer should have built into the horn in the first place. Good for you, shame on them!

    I believe that Bud Herseths C did not get better with the patches (the places that needed them were generally damped by hand contact anyway! He played that horn so long and it fit him like a glove. The patches allowed him to keep that old friend longer.
     
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  7. crowmadic

    crowmadic Mezzo Piano User

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    Oct 3, 2006
    Is there any chance that someone can describe what these Tweequer are made of, and what actually keeps them attached, adheasive or something else? I realize the word "clip" is being used but don't see anything that looks like a clip. If "clip" means pressed on I'd like to know because the chances of them popping off accidently would seem high. And, what are the chances of doing damage to your finish? I clicked on FAQ on Marc's web site but got an empty but colorful blue page. It sounds like a great product, and I hope someone will answer these questions...........thanks, crow
     
  8. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    May 29, 2007
    Hi Rowuk, Nice post. But I don't agree with you on this point. I don't believe heavier = more efficient. I don't want to hijack this thread on tweeqers so maybe it would be good to take this up in the Horn forum

    Mark thanks for the info. What I was hoping to get at is if someone handed you a Bach C or Yamaha C where would be your starting point with the tweeqers. I'm sure you have tried this on a bunch of these horns. In general where is the best placement. Or where would you start if a customer handed you his/her horn and your "small" tweeqer package.

     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    tatakata,
    don't misunderstand me. Heavier does not automatically mean more efficient. Less energy off of the outside of the bell does - a characteristic of Monettes heavier horns - but not due to the weight.
     
  10. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    May 29, 2007
    I'm sorry but I disagree with you. I do not think Monette's "heavier horns" are more efficient than a "conventional weight" trumpet. In fact I think they are less efficient. I think the player has to work harder. The sound does not carry as far and the tone is not characteristic of a -trumpet-. I base this on having played some of Monette's heavier horns and having sat in the back of very large (and famous) concert halls where members on stage have been using "Heavy Monettes".
     

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