Monel Valves

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Trumpet Dreamer, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. lakerjazz

    lakerjazz Mezzo Piano User

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    trumpetsplus,
    I understand now what you mean. When you originally said thinly plated, I didn't think you meant too thinly plated, because nickel plating on valves is always quite thin. I guess that in this case, the OP should hope that the valves are monel. Generally, though, you said that Monel is worse- this is an interesting point. It would make sense to me, as I've found that the best valves are not monel, but I'm wondering Monette will now do? If they are selling horns at that price, you'd think they'd be making stainless steel pistons by now. Why are they still stuck on monel? Or am I making a mistake here:dontknow:, and Monette no longer uses monel?
     
  2. erd402

    erd402 Pianissimo User

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    Jupiter uses both monel and stainless steel valves (and I think they may also use nickel plated, correct me if I'm wrong) it just depends on the model. Their 1602 and 1604 XO trumpets use monel pistons and the 1600I uses stainless steel. Some of their student models use stainless steel also. I'm pretty sure they at least used to have nickel valves but I'm not completely sure if they still do. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but can someone explain how stainless steel compares to monel and nickel pistons?
     
  3. erd402

    erd402 Pianissimo User

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    I've been looking at Jupiters website and I think I'm wrong about the nickel valves. I haven't been able to find any trumpets that use them, but I found out the 600L and 600MRL student trumpets use stainless steel valves and all of the intermediate horns use monel. I've heard before that people have had lots of problems with their monel valves and that after complaining Jupiter has replaced them with stainless steel valves for free.
     
  4. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    Stainless Steel and good, i.e. Getzen and Anderson's retrofit, nickel plating is a consistent hard surface bearing against a soft surface. This follows the engineering rules for bearing surfaces. THe reason that Stainless Steel is becoming more prevalent is that modern CNC machining can achieve much close tolerances than were easily achievable back in the Olds or Mt Vernon eras.

    Monel, as used in valves, has a varying hardness (as explained earlier in this thread), and when wear happens through use or excessive lapping, starts to "chatter" on the upstroke. This chattering leads to unreliable valve action, and the wear can only be remedied by honing the casings and either fitting oversized pistons or having the originals built up by a company like Andersons.
     
  5. erd402

    erd402 Pianissimo User

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    So in terms of a longer lasting piston, stainless steel and nickel plated (if plated well) are the way to go?
     
  6. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    Exactly right:thumbsup:
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    There are two schools of thought for trumpet valves. One is to use monel and let the wear pattern customize the action for the player based on how they push the valve. This is what the people at the Bach factory told me in the early 70's. The other school of thought is to make them much harder and RESISTANT to wear (and additional break in), but perhaps not as comfortable as with monel. I have both types, as well as students with the Yamaha 2xxx horns. None of these configurations has given us any grief - even in the past VERY hot summer!. My students do get cleaning classes and we do take a lesson every quarter for cleaning.

    This is a very good place to say that IF we learn to properly oil the valves, NONE of the metals will wear appreciably for a long time. If we are lazy/ignorant about preventative medicine, then we get what we deserve. My Bach 229H CL was bought in 1974 and the valves are still reasonably tight, have no chatter but have fast action.

    The REAL problem is NOT the metal, rather the (lacking) TLC from the player.
     
  8. erd402

    erd402 Pianissimo User

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    Another question. I've read on Getzen's website that another major reason why they prefer nickel is that the smooth finish of the piston. The nickel plating leaves a smooth surface which feels lubricated even when its not but once monel is annealed it becomes grainy. How are stainless steel pistons when it comes to smoothness?
     
  9. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    That is an old school of thought ROWUK. Due to the improvements in holding close tolerances with CNC machining, breaking in is not as necessary now as it was even back in the 70s. It is the same as for new cars.

    Stainless Steel pistons from our European friends are set to go from moment one.

    Totally agree with your TLC comments; however I have 35 Yamaha 2335s from a school in my workshop. They have not received TLC, and I have a major job to free the valves and main slides.

    I lay the blame equally with Yamaha for manufacturing the valves too tight and not using traditional methods on the tuning slide, and the teacher whose responsibility it is to ensure that the students clean, oil, grease their instruments.

    ROWUK, I congratulate you on your successfully teaching this message to your students. :-)
     
  10. Trumpet Dreamer

    Trumpet Dreamer Mezzo Forte User

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    This brings up a question...my 3rd valve seems to stick a little. Not all the time, only if depressed at anything other than being perfectly perpendicular. Valves 1 & 2 do not exhibit this at all. And the trumpet has been cleaned / oiled with no relief from this problem. And what is strange is that if I use my index finger on this valve, it seems that the sticking (chatter?) issue abates to a large degree.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010

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