My Holton Colligate from 1946 arrived but I have a question?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 30, 2008.

  1. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Ok it does not have any means to adjust the first and third slides on the fly. You have to pull the tubes out by hand. It does not have a stop rod on the third valve but has a stop rod on the main tuneing slide? I have not cleaned it up yet since it just arived and I am makeing dinner right now. Was this used to adjust from Bb to A etc????? I am just woundering why you would need a stop rod on the main slide? It is silver plated and has a pea shooter build. The valves apear to be silver plated. Some nuckle head ran them dry so they look badly scracthed but they appear to be true other then this. So afteer I get he cleaned up and oil and pop a mouth piece in her I will let you know how she sounds! I might lap the valves and see if that cleans them up. Ifnot I will replate them. I have been looking into buildingmy own plateing setup. I have already looked in to valve burnishing and reaming tools. Boy I love working on old trumpet's. This one is going to be put right back to stock 100%. Other then the scratch's which do not appear to be deep at all on the valves this instrument has zero dents and only a few small dings. The only place their is silver finish wear is on one valve cyclinder and on the N02 tuneing slide.
     
  2. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    Valve reaming and lapping are last resorts. Learn the other techniques before you destroy the valves on a horn that didn't need a valve job.
     
  3. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    I am glad youhave so much faith in my skills. I am not though ssome nuckle head with a pipe wrench and hammer working on my trumpet. I would of course try burnishing first on something this old, then lapping with a very mild compound before resorting to reaming. This is not rocket science it falls well below my skill set in terms of trainign and clearances and tolerances. Bear in mind I am trained as a machinest and automotive technician before going to college for Aviation Technology and latter a Business degree. So I am used to working with my hands on complex machinery inthe aviation and automotive world. I understand you reason for wanting to tellsomeone to exercise caution I would not want someone that has no machine experince trying to do anything more agressive then the old brasso lapping technique!!! I played it some more today and I think in the end it is going to work itself out. That one valve though does need to be oil each time you use it for best action. The other's do not. I am hopeing it will improve as it get's worked more. Even with my agressive scrubing I am sure their is still gunk from sitting in storage so long in the form of oxidation on the inside of that bore more then likely. So hopfuly the oil will work it's way under this stuff and float it to the surface and seasontyhe bore.
     
  4. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    I am just saying, do you know how to determine why the 2nd valve sticks? or how to check if the pistons are bent and not the casings? Valve mandrels that are made to the size of the casing can be hammered to shock the casing back into round.
     
  5. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

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    Is it the 2nd valve that hesitates to return?


    OLDLOU>>
     
  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    No it's the third valve. I think it is just a combination of wear as the valves are heavly worn but they are still almost perfectly round. The plateing is thin onthe bottom's of the valves bellow the last hole and around the middle where the ports are. The first and second valves are slick like two pieces of ice seperated by a drop of water.....They are nice it is just that third valve that is so-so. I took a small mob brush and soaked it in alchol and cleaned the bores out again today and got a lot of junk out even though I scrubed the entire trumpet down last night with 100% concentrated Castrol Super Clean which is about 1000 times stronger but the same active ingredient as Simple Green. Then after I scrubed the snot out of the thing for about 2 hours last night I ran straight hot water through it for 10 minutes just through the bell and then about 1 minute through each tube. Then I dried it off and took cotton swab's to the inside of the bores to dry them prior to oiling. I oiled it heavily then played it then oiled it again then played some more then my son played it and put it away. So I think part of it is just oxidation inside the bore's. If I had a good way to reach in to them I would take brasso to them but I do not want to put it on the valves as they cannot afford to lose any more material unless I want to plate them. I am ordering a guage set from Vota Tools becasue my set is too big to fit in the bore's. As long as my bores are not out of round or tapered and I do not think they are I might just replate the valves to size and lapp them to final finish.

    So today I tried 33in1 oil as one of my friends has has used on vintage instruments. I am sure it would work great on rotary valves and for insanely worn piston valves but mine obviously are not worn enough. It was super smooth but slowed the valve action down too much. So I tried mixing some 3in1 with some cheap Marshall Music valve oil that I got with one of the trumpet's 50/50 and I will try that.

    When I cleaned the bores with rubbing alchol today I also cleaned the valves and all of the above had lot's of deposits that wiped off. I think it is just the fact that Nickle Silver is 29 silver and the sleeve inside is some form of copper,brass or bronze I would imagine. So 63 years with I do not know how many just sitting dry in an attic produced lot's of oxidation I am sure! I have to say though those first two valves are some of the sweeted feeling valves I have ever felt! In fact I do not think I have ever felt valves that smooth and fast even on a new trumpet! I think it is the fact that they are larger then modern trumpet valves in their diameter. I think this greatly increases the load bearing surface and makes them feel super slick.
     
  7. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    I will say this I am a big guy 6'2"and built like I play pro football. I played college ball. The trumpet is so narrow that I have a heck of a time getting the top cap's on and off. It is like a pea shooter so it is narrow and long. So far that third valve has only stoped once I am going to have my son practice on it tonight and see if it sticks again. Oh I also tried adding another spring to it. It had two springs on one of the cylinders because when I took it apart to clean it I had 4 springs in the tub. I now figure it was the third valve. I tried putting it back in but it made it too hard to push the piston down. Sure a big guy like me can do it but I would not expect a kid to use it that way. It will bo ok I am sure. I am probably going to leave it alone until he wear's it out or need to upgrade. The way the first and third tubes are designed and how long they are it would be very akward to have a saddle and ring installed. The ring would have to be built on a piece of copper plate about 6 inch's long and run all the way to the end of the third crook and soldered ontot he end because their is no straight outside tubeing ont he end of the slide. It has super long inside tubes with a round crook much like what is on the second valve. The first is more of the same. So as soon as he starts playing scales and piece that require the use of intonation aid's he will need a different trumpet.
     
  8. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    You shouldn't use cotton swabs to clean valve casings. If any gets pulled off and stuck in the tubing and you miss it when you clean the horn out it could get caught between the pistons and cause them to lock up.
    Use cheese cloth or another lint free cloth.
     
  9. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Cool thanks for the tip!!! I actualy thought about that while I was useing them but then I thought I was just getting carried away worring about nothing! So at least I know that is a real concern. I have cleaned them about three times now and I am still getting a lot gray oxidized build up everytime I play it and clean the valves. It is just number three though. It sticks from time to time. You touch it and it pop's back up on it's own. I am almost sure it is the bare patch onthe bottom edge about 1/2 the sive of a dime all the nickle silver plateing is gone onthat area. Tonight my sone prracticed for about an hour then put the horn away. SInce they are staying up late to usher inthe new year I decided he could stand with another 10 minutes of practice. So he got it out of the case played it for about 7 minutes and it stuck inthe down postion again that is twice in 24 hour's. It sounds good though and has good compression.

    So after I am sure that the valve case sleeve is not worn abnormaly am just going to plate the valves in copper since copper plateing is almost idiot proof. Nickle Silver can be hard to get good adhesion if you do not do everything perfect and even then it can still be tricky. When they first started useinf nickle silver the rate of return's to be reworked was really high due to flacking and poor adhesion. Copper onthe other hand while not as durable as nickle is super easy to get good results. I did some silver plateing and copper plateing for one of my Elementary science fair projects as a kid. Once I plate them up I will palte them then check them and repeat until they are just snug in the bore. Then I will lap them to final fit and finish. That should produce some insanely fast and well behaved valves. Copper plateing should easily last 20-30 year's with no problems as long as anyone useing them does not run them dry or anything like that.

    Yes, I am getting a burnishing set exactly for the reason you mentioned. I have seen some nice trumpet's on ebay that had valve case damage. I like to keep the old vintage stuff alive since I actualy prefer the sound of vintage1920-1960 trumpet's. I really do not think their is much out their that is drasticly better thensome of the better vintage models fromt he past. Ilike working with my hands so I can buy things I could never afford if they where in mint shape. I can more easily spend $100 here and $200 their then I can $2000 on one trumpet all at once. My family comes first and times have been tuff for use the last 4 year's. The 15 year's prior to that though I had more money then I knew what to do with. In fact their was a time when I routinely carried $3000-$8000 in my wallet. I would routinely buy a car or part's for my race amature race car etc......Now I can not afford to spend more then $50-$100 a month on a hobby! So part of my DIY nature is becasue I have the skill with my hand and not enough money to pay someone else to do it for me!

    When my Boy is older maybe we can come to Canada for a Jazz festival andmeet you some place for a beer and I we can play each other's $50 trumpet experiments!!LOL From what I hear Canada does a nice job in the summer and through out the year of doing Music Clinics and such. I only live in Michigan Canada like an Suburb of Detroit to many people in Michigan!!
     
  10. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    I think the moisture on the copper plate and the fact that copper oxidized would leave the valves rough and sticky.
     

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