Natural pitch and concert pitch for Cornet

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by BrassFriend, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. frankmike

    frankmike Piano User

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    pedal tone cannot be the fundamental pitch, as its is pedal tone. As pedal tone is a tone that is below natural range of the instrument
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The notes that we play are related to the amount of wavelengths in the horn. The fundemental has one wavelength (pedal Bb), the second partial has 2 (divides the length of the horn in half and is one octave higher - Bb between the staves). The third partial has 3 wavelengths in the horn and is a second line F, the 4th partial has 4 wavelengths in the horn and is an octave higher than the first partial.
    5th = 5 wavelengths (d)
    6th = 6 wavelengths (G one octave higher than the 3rd partial with 3)
    7th = 7 wavelengths which is Ab
    8th = 8 wavelengths one octave higher than the 4th partial, 2 octaves higher than the 2nd partial and 3 higher than the fundemental or 1st partial.

    This is pretty easy math. More about it here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

    Harmonic Series

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(mathematics)
     
  3. ComeBackKid

    ComeBackKid Fortissimo User

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    Here is a thread that was active some months ago which goes into great detail about that "hidden" partial - the Ab(concert) note between F and Bb above the staff. Any one who pays attention when playing can certainly find it.

    http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131/hidden-slot-47113.html
     
  4. BrassFriend

    BrassFriend New Friend

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    Jan 29, 2010
    Greetings to you all!
    Some questions, please...

    I have been spending time making my fingering chart, and per what we had previously discussed, per Bb brass instruments, in order to be with the same fingering positions, a lot of brass instruments are in Bb in order to have the same fingering position...I have found that it does not seem to be true, even so.

    I was looking at fingering charts for the Euphorium, and the treble clef G fingering position on the Euphorium is different from the Trumpet treble clef G fingering position. Thereby, I am realizing there are so many variables, if not altogether different.

    I am confused all over again. I thought these instruments were geared so to be on the same page????

    Also, even within the Trumpet range of high and low notes, the G for example, changes fingering position when it is a low G. It it then no longer an open valved fingering position, but 1st and 3rd valve are pushed down, (even with a possible alternate position using the slide).

    Furthermore, in the basic ranges of the Euphorium there does not seem to be any G notes that have open valves at all.

    I am assuming that the average fingering chart for the Euphorium three valves is in Bb, yes? Such as the one shown at UnitedMusical.com???

    Any additional information about all this would be so appreciated by me.
    Thanks in advance.

    God bless you all.
    :play:
     
  5. BrassFriend

    BrassFriend New Friend

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    Jan 29, 2010
    I've been preparing my chart in a graphic program, and as I mentioned, reality is hitting me that the various instruments seem to "not" be in unison with each other.
    Thereby, my elaborate idea to make a large chart is not working.
    I am beginning to perceive that most gifted performers know what their own instrument plays and what they can make it play, and it far out weighs what fingering charts can do.
    I think I have this backwards.
    Perhaps I should be reversing this. Making my own chart with my own instrument and seeing what it is playing with a tuner and go by that.
    But my large chart idea is gorgeous so far, but it just might not be at all functional with any other brass instruments. Although they may have three valves as well, but I can see that they have their own fingering positions, contrary to what I had first been told. Or per chance am I seeing something altogether wrong here? Should the Bb instruments, even bass brass instruments with three valves, all be playing the same fingering positions all the way down the staff and all the way up?
    That is the question.
     
  6. ComeBackKid

    ComeBackKid Fortissimo User

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    Hey, Brassfriend, I feel your pain. Sorting this out is not a trivial task. There are many different fingering charts for different instruments so it is not hard to see why it is confusing to you. But, the relationships between the valve combinations, starting with Open, 2, 1, 12, 23, 13, 123 (going down a semitone for each successive combination) is always true. It is what is referred to as 'alternate fingering' that creates the confusion along with the fact that not all instruments start on the same "fundamental" (1st partial) tone so the fingering is relative to that fundamental.

    Below is a copy of a fingering chart(in 2 pieces) for a Bb trumpet which shows some additional information such as the octave number, the partial number, the standard fingering and the alternate fingering for some notes. Because the "partials" (open valve notes) become closer together as you go up, the alternate fingerings overlap more and more so there are actually several alternates at the top until the notes with the '**' which can be played with just about any fingering. I hope this will help somewhat.

    ***** Bb Trumpet Fingering Chart ******

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  7. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Wanna Laugh about this idea of perfect pitch, just a bit of fun at my expense. I played b flat cornet and trumpet til I was about 18 or so then after a time at college I returned to my home town and was asked to play "Frederick " in "Pirates of Penzance" wonderful hey I can sing tenor I thought. The only problem was towards the end of rehersals as I became tired my sense of pitch could easily drop a tone particularly in recit sections. Oops. I suppose the real point is that if you can as others have said rely on pitch memory rather than the very rare true perfect pitch then you should be okay. I can after Pirates, by singing one section, end on a concert pitch G then relate everything to that (pitch memory I would say) Best thing to do is to practice, and listen to your teacher if you have on and take gaurded advice from folks on here, Rowuk always talks sense, CBK, is also very good, trumpet nick's posts I usually enjoy. There are many more but I can't list them all (I've only been on here a month)

    Cheers

    Andrew
     
  8. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Sorry the last post is a bit out of order but the discussion about partials came up as I hit the " Post button"

    Andrew
     

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