no new nuthin, no how, no where

Discussion in 'Horns' started by jamesfrmphilly, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. jamesfrmphilly

    jamesfrmphilly Piano User

    366
    0
    Oct 31, 2003
    the north philly ghetto
    schilke is a great design and i'd buy one if i had any money but it seems frozen in place as a heritage to mr schilke.
    there will never be a new design or even a modification on the old design.
    i spoke to naumann and He wouldn't even consider any additional finishes (satin or raw brass).
    they have become just like bach in just producing a very good old design.
    any innovation will have to come from another company.
     
  2. bigaggietrumpet

    bigaggietrumpet Mezzo Forte User

    801
    1
    Jan 23, 2004
    Nazareth, PA
    There is an old adage that holds very true for this;

    When it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Why should they change their horns? The only reason would be cosmetic. And really, I would rather have one of their "good old designs" if it fit my playing the way I wanted to than to have any awesome looking horn that really didn't play as well in my opinion (and PLEASE, people who own the other horns on here don't get mad at me for that, I am not slamming anyone's horn). Schilke doesn't have to change, they still have a solid market with people who like tried and consistently proven well playing horns.
     
  3. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi All,

    The market will dictate if Schilke has to make changes. I understand the concept of tradition, but Andy N is a young man , he was at one time assocated. with Donald Getzen and has to walk fine line between the traditionalist and the up-and -comers. He realizes any change will have to come slowly.

    Small Changes at Schilke:

    Schilke has a new repair policy. They have re-placed Ron Pinc position, for a while Schilke did no repair work in-house but refereed everything to Ron Pinc ,who worked as a shop foreman at Schilke for 22 years, before his departure to the laskey Company, Scott laskey also being a former Schilke employee. they now will no longer sell parts to repairman, but have the customer send the Schilke directly to the factory.

    Andy has already started small changes to the management style ( emails adddress for various key individuals, new adds , hiring Phil Barman to head his operation ) ). The old Schilke was a stricly phone call/ snail mail situation, no e-mails or faxes, so if it was $;30 pm in Wabash, you Schilke Situatio had to wait to the next day.

    Custom and Standard Mouthpiece Direct sales:

    Schilke has just come out with a new section of the mouthpiece division headed by Carl Hammond , that will actually have threaded mouthpiece components, rim, cup , backbore available as standard stock items on a direct basis ( before any Schilke stand product had to go thru a dealer, not direct sales form the factory ) and direct sales of the heavy blank. If I remember correctly, digitizing was also available, but don;t quote me on that. mouthpiece servises no have standard charges, threading , plating. etc.

    A new brochure is available this, I don't know if it's on their site, yet

    My opinion is that every trumpet maker could and should improved the smallest aspect or detail of their trumpet line if they know of it. Most manufactures don't for econonic reasons, rationalizing the isssue using the Ford Pinto Philosophy of " well , we sell enough of them now, so why fix the problem, that will cost money" and some simply don't recognize they may well have a problem and some realize that the public won't pay or absorb the cost increase for better production methods and materials or can't tell the difference.

    Larry
     
  4. jamesfrmphilly

    jamesfrmphilly Piano User

    366
    0
    Oct 31, 2003
    the north philly ghetto
    i think a satin finish and a raw brass finish would be nice.
    three piece braces would be worth a try.
    things like that.
    but it will not happen.
     
  5. Mr. Stomvi

    Mr. Stomvi Pianissimo User

    211
    2
    Nov 14, 2003
    It's hard to argue with their success. Ya figure they produce what is considered the benchmark of the industry in their Eb trumpets (E3L, E3L4), their Eb cornets, their E,F,G trumpets and of course their P5-4 picc. Not bad for a small company. Unfortunately - I gotta figure these are relatively small production items (compared to Bb trumpet sales) and that they will have to compete with all of their used instruments on eBay for years to come. I figure 99% of all their piccs are rarely if ever played as people want to try them and then realize it is a whole nuther beast that requires huge amounts of work to become proficient at them. Most will be found in peoples closets collecting dust or dumped on eBay after a few years.

    Seth Moore
     
  6. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

    4,529
    8
    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    It might be coincidental with the looming purchase of Schilke by Mr. Nauman, but I was able to find a way to get to Phil Baughman (Sales Mgr. at Schilke) by email back in June? or July of 2002...just before the takeover. Of course, he had to send me his home email address! But he was very approachable and timely with respect to responding.

    Why should Schilke change their designs? Just so they can be accused of building a Yamaha clone? I like to think NOT! The Schilke rep is based (IMO) on the vast volume of research done by Renold "back when", the quality of their craftsmanship, and the tonal qualities of their horns; (you can have any finish you want as long as it is either bright silver or gold plated).

    If you don't like their attitude...go buy something else. It's obvious that they have consciously elected to maintain their market niche through uncompromising quality and maintenance of design standards and pricing. They don't WANT the hassles of "growth", but they realize the need to stay at least as large as they are. Not interested in the "student nor intermediate" markets (other than their brief foray with the MI and MII designs). Not interested in the "one-off" stuff like Monette, Marcinkiewicz, Lawler, et al. Not interested in a mess of "non-catalogue" options like custom finish (which probably has much to do with accoustic design). It's worked for them so far; their instruments are in demand and command relatively good resale values.

    Smart business decisions I'd say. No point in competing with the Yamaha, Selmer, UMI "elephants" if you don't have to.
     
  7. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Tootsall,

    I agree completely. Schilke does not have to change a thing in any of the current models. The introduction of the S series was the last change, ( 1984, I believe ) no to any model, but the addition of what they hoped to be a Schilke " Bach Killer " ( Ron Pinc words not mine )

    As you well know, tootsall, in a manufacturing facility, that deal in the increments of .001 or an inch , tooling , machinery, tolerances, specs have to be maintained , re-placed and constantly checked by the facility.
    Usually , not paying attention to those day to day issues is the downfall of a once flourishing, successful line of instruments. not the initial engineering that brought the early models there success, has to be maintained. ( a couple of .001 here and couple of .001 there any pretty soon you have a new model whether you wanted to not ). Currently Bach may be a example of this lack of quality ,that debateable , Umi Benge is definitely one

    The addition of ' brushed gold " , I think would not hurt a Schilke's playing, but maybe Andersen Plating ( were Schilke get's there plating done ) has an objection to it, or small custom orders would be a distraction to Schilke at this time. Since gold plating is plated over silver, if you buy a silver trumpet any repair facility can send it out to be " Brush gold plated " If you are dead set on that finish and taking this line of thinking to extremes, you can always have a silver trumpet stripped, especially a some what used one, and have it lacquered by a local repairman.

    I've dealt with Ren Sr, Ren Jr, Joan , Scott Laskey , Terry , Steve
    Winan ( previous nt. sales manager ), Carl Hammond and Phil Baughman in my times and I great repect for all of them, but I can see the new attitude of the shop reflected in Phil's using his personnel e-mail to facilitate a customer's needs. That would have been frowned on in some past schilke managements.

    Larrry
     
  8. jamesfrmphilly

    jamesfrmphilly Piano User

    366
    0
    Oct 31, 2003
    the north philly ghetto
    so, the design of the trumpet is fixed and settled.
    there is nothing further to do.
    we just keep making the same thing and watch our tolerances and our QC.
    oh well.
     
  9. DrunkIQ

    DrunkIQ Pianissimo User

    195
    0
    Nov 21, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    I would surmise that the historical Schilke designs will remain untouched. But as many know, Schilke is a custom horn builder. I have seen 4 valve Bb horns among other strange instances. I personally would like to try one of the mythical "'o" sized bells.

    I am sure they will continue to do R&D, espically with Andrew at the helm. Schilke is working hard to bring their company into the now. Last year they created a new play test room. They also launched a new line of mouthpieces. This year they are probably going to impress us in many, many ways.

    At TMEA next month, Schilke is brinng a huge line up of horns.... This will be the first oppurtunity for many of us to try a P7 piccolo trumpet.
     
  10. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Marc,

    I saw Andrew ( some of us call him Andy, I'll choose Andy, less typing ) and Phil at the NAMM Show here in Anaheim last month. I fact , I'll send you same pictures if you give me a e-mail address that I can send to.

    Sorry, off topic.

    I was going to ask him about a great device they Schilke offered with their tunable bell trumpets at one time , but stopped and Terry told me I could call Ron Pinc for it.

    It was their " Sound Post " that was used with tunable bells.

    It attached to the outer slide with a small clamp ( like the one that is at the base of the tuning bell ) , and has a small rod, with a pivot system with a half ball ( 1/4 inch ) on the end , going toward the bell , that let you put a little pressure on the bell at any location across from the tuning slide you liked and actually helped the nodal pattern ( sound ) settle in when you found the right spot that felt the best. It wasn't soldered on, just clamped.

    Ron Pinc would make them but only on a custom order . I had numerous one's in the 80's and was actually giving them away. Now I'd like to get more, but , well , you know - custom order means 2 things - alot of time, alot of money.

    Faddis uses one on his S42 and do does Roger Ingram. they really make a tunable bell system much more secure feeling, not so " loose "

    Anyway, I'll save a phone charge and let you see how much fun moderating is by getting this TMer his answer.

    Larry

    PS - I forgot I had 2 Schilke C trumpets , C3 and C5 circa 1963 and 64 , loaned out to friends ( you know, those long term, may never get it back type loans ) , but out here , Bach is still the C trumpet King. ( Yamaha/Malone a close second ) You should see the stares I get if I bring my Dominic made " Calicchio C " to a job - WOW !!!
     

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