NYTC thanks! Valve spring report....

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by crowmadic, Nov 11, 2007.

  1. NYTC

    NYTC Forte User

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    Nov 1, 2004
    Brooklyn,NY


    Thank you,Robin.:)
     
  2. crowmadic

    crowmadic Mezzo Piano User

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    Oct 3, 2006
    ditto! Thanks Rowuk for dignifying the issue of "High Speed Valve Springs". We all know it's not the springs themselves that make one proficient at playing at high speeds. We've got a lot of wise asses on this site, and I too have been one at times................crow
     
  3. Ray Vega

    Ray Vega Pianissimo User

    The springs are only the tip of the iceberg. For those of you who have not had a chance to play any of the NYTC horns, go to their website and track them down at any of the upcoming trumpet shows. It's worth the effort.
     
  4. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

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    Jun 11, 2006
    Robin,
    Spring constant has to do with everything. Spring constant is the value Force/length. You can make springs out of all kinds of stuff. The lowest density material with the highest modulus of elasticity makes the most efficient spring. Linear springs have a constant diameter and a uniform coil. More than likely, better valve action on a trumpet spring comes from a NONuniform wind over the length of action. A nonlinear wind will have an easy push at the start and give more resistance as the valve is depressed. That way the piston goes down with less pressure but builds up imperceptively until fully compressed where it bottoms out. Letting up on the spring unloads with full force and decreases as the valve goes up. A perfect spring is tuned to hold the valve up and no more. This means you weigh your valve and get kilograms or newtons. Then you measure the distance of valve action, centimeters. Then divide kilograms by centimeters,length of action. Then you reach into your box of springs and choose a spring with a slightly higher constant that has the correct length. Maybe 5 percent higher constant.

    I would like to have Beryllium springs in my trumpet. The next best is titanium. There is a new alloy of titanium that works really well. I think eye glasses frames are made with it.
    Steel corrodes. Brass works for awhile and may be found in some horns.

    Brett Getzen should chime in on this.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    A great analysis!

    The "desired" spring tension is also a personal thing that trancends science however. As with mouthpieces, the perceived "feeling" is the deciding factor.

    Beryllium may present a safety issue, I would be interested in trying titanium however.
     
  6. crowmadic

    crowmadic Mezzo Piano User

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    Oct 3, 2006
    stchasking & rowuk (not a law firm)
    Are you guys dreaming about titanium springs or are there some out there?
    If not, is there a manufacture that's considering it? Do you think the difference would justify the expense? Just spinning some more wheels?.........crow
     
  7. NYTC

    NYTC Forte User

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    I don't think you can use Beryllium as a material,it is just a hardening agent.
    Beryllium Copper,however,is a good material to use.
    Titanium is a good one also,however it is very hard to work with.There are 2 types of "new" titanium,both used in eyeglass industry.There is a "surgical grade"
    titanium(the most expensive),and Beta titanium,which is cheaper.
     
  8. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

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    I would think titanium springs are out there in the industrial world. I know we used and may still use them on commercial aircraft landing gear mechanisms.
    They were very huge springs.

    The small springs for trumpets is a search worth trying.

    I know Beryllium in its pure state would make a good spring.
    I do not know of Copper-Beryllium being used in anything but sliding friction problems such as bearings or bushings. I did use Copper-Beryllium in an aircraft for an electrical buss. I needed good conductivity with good corrosion resistance. The corrosion engineers forbid the use of pure copper.

    Thank you to New York trumpets for helping out this thread. We need to stay practical but immagineering is a lot more fun.
     
  9. confuoco

    confuoco Pianissimo User

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    Nov 11, 2007
    Beryllium is a word I hear often associated with Schilke trumpets.
     
  10. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

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    Jun 11, 2006
    The problem we have in valve springs is finding a supplier that will sell only a few at a time. A manufacturer sells a few thousand to a distributor. The distributer brakes them down into smaller packages for a retailer and finally we buy only three from the retailer.

    Most of you can do a search on "titanium springs" and find manufacturers. Take it from there to see if you can get them for your trumpet.
     

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