Quality of Brass...

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by crowmadic, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    'Do you think someone is actually going to read that?'

    :lol:

    Just so t. I figured it was gonna go long-

    apologies.


    Here's the gist for anyone interested. And i don't feel at all; that the topic here's just academic. This is doable, and i think the costs would mellow outside the added expense of the materials itself.

    As it is though, i'm not suggesting there's cause to try new materials. Far from it, and why bother? I'm simply saying what would happen if we mixed Copper, Gold and Silver, with as little element/admixture as structural & usage needs will allow?

    Add to that, let's throw the cryo in the mix to enhance the effects.

    As Robin pointed out, we don't need the NASA budget and a flock of Rocket Scientists to try new things out. And what we'll get is something different is all.

    Which is all there is. I'm not talking about what we may consider better.

    Also; and not to distract from the gist here, and in line of keeping the experimentation simple and cheap.
    Possibly it'd be good strategy to double up existing brass mixes, on top of these new batches of gold, silver -and its base copper? This way you could take advantage of the many existing and tried % variances of element/admixture without the effort and science. And begin to cycle back how much is needed, or how pure can we go in sight of structural/usage needs, corrosion concerns?

    Sounds easier-

    And possibly begin to get a fix on the effects these differing percentages/variances has on sound and raw color? Which may be ambitious of what's appreciable difference. :) But some good tinkerin'.



    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    This thread is now closed for me. I contributed all that I can. For those of you that agree, fine. For those of you that think something wasn't covered, go back and read the responses. Everything is there. I don't think we missed anything and explaning it for the 4th or 5th time doesn't change that.
    The trumpets that we play today are the result of hundreds of years of evolution. Unlike a violin that essentially has kept its material and form for 200 or 300 hundred years, the trumpet is still in a state of evolution. Funny enough, the most "advanced" horns today still share the manufacturing techniques and materials developed 200 or 300 years ago. I am sure that that is not by chance. The mistakes that were made were not "preserved/documented" for future generations with too much time on their hands.
    Building the finest instruments for the finest players will continue to be an art. The artisans with an ear for the needs of the player, the financial integrity to be able to offer support and the desire to stretch the envelope will shape what we will be offered in the future. The mass producers will continue to shoot themselves in the foot in their desire to offer ever cheaper.
    Exotic materials will remain just that. Maybe something will come of it. To be honest, that is of no significance to me. I still am learning something about each of my instruments every day and funny enough, my 1938 Heckel rotary trumpet is every bit as amazing as my 2007 Monette Prana3 - both made primarily of ordinary brass. They share many of the same playing traits. Maybe Dave is the reborn Heckel!?........

    So Crow, you did it again. A very lively topic where we ended essentially as smart as where we started. Artists can theorize and create new only by trial and error. Scientists can create new out of logic but have no concept of artistic implementation. R&D by trial and error takes decades, I see no other way. Hope you all had a good time!
    The END (for this thread, for me anyway).
     
  3. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    Robin, there's no problem Bud. Nobody's talking about reinventing the wheel. And certainly we're talking about a niche market, not unlike your Monette horns by example. ..No big deal. And understand- i've apologized for my lengthy posts. I value the time i spend here, and i have stolen a lot of it to try and learn something. I don't take that for granted, as i've tried to express my gratitude. And it's true, a lot of time could be saved with less reactionary pulse- given there's better communication of interests and questioning.

    'Scientists can create new out of logic but have no concept of artistic implementation.'

    Hope that's not your feeling for John Lynch. I was hoping you were intending to speak with him given your concerns of 'technobabble, in line of your tech. talk mouthpiece thread. -And in keeping with your concerns of forum members getting quality information. I was looking forward to that


    'R&D by trial and error takes decades, I see no other way.'

    True enough, but recognition of sound differences is one of the few times we get to enjoy the pleasures of instant gratification. The R&D of 'exotic metals', (Gold and Silver), in what's likely to be very small percentages along side good ol'fashioned Copper- won't take much time to realize a base spectrum of sound.


    I've enjoyed the thread very much Crow, much thanks. This thing's doable, and i have no doubts there'll be significant recognition of sound differences from what are available now? Not better, but different.


    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
  4. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    But, Chris,

    What trumpet (or other instrument) do you play?

    What brass is it made of?

    What finish does it have?

    You've left us hanging! :dontknow: Pray tell us!

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     
  5. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    .


    'You've left us hanging!'


    No i didn't Lloyd. I mentioned a couple threads back:

    '..i'm workin' on that Bud. [​IMG] It's some good fun.'

    Not that i don't gather your meaning. If i'm going to suggest that i have no doubts there'll be significant differences of sound that are available now.. i'd better have an idea of what that means- :)

    Believe me; i'm all over it.


    But my logic couldn't be more direct, contrary to what Robin suggets.

    That's to say, metal itself (has) - (inherent resonant quality). Add to this effect its temper, or a desired mix in creating an alloy, comes into play too. As well, the purity of the metals, and the purity of the (elements/admixture), in creating the alloy. Also the heating and cooling of the tempering process.

    Now who knows to what degree of enhancement/difference, is available here with any certainty? Who cares? It's there to be had. The alloy will tell the story of whether it's inches or miles of significant differences in sound. If it weren't there to be had- we're saying there's no sound logic in the tried and true rationale of using certain alloy for certain task in'a trumpet design. Which nobody's saying.

    Although, there is a practical suggestion that a builder is creating tone in lue of this inherent resonance, given its subtlety? -That the differences of sound that are presently negotiable, are a philosophy of addition by subtraction? Obviously a builder can't omit the resonance available in the alloy by way of creating sound by design. -Anymore than a purer mix of this same alloy, (Copper/Zinc/admixture), with percentage of Gold and Silver added. -And further enhanced by cryo treatment ..is likely to distract their artistry. Or is significant of anything more than the same business as usual refinement that's typical of builder integrity.

    Nothing new here, just same ol' same ol'.

    The 'conjecture'. Or what's more accurate; the prosepective speculation. -Hinges on whether a so-called higher purity of the Copper, or a Copper with lesser percentages of Zinc/admixture, necessarily spells greater clarity of its existing resonance?

    -whether adding pure Gold and Silver will focus this clarity, and as well; will it add depth and color in tone resonance?

    -and whether cryo further enhances this cumulative effectiveness?


    Stands to reason there's a momentum here to get after- this seems far more reasonable than not. And far simpler consideration. -And for the record; my instincts were right on the SciFi thread as well, if we're gonna rub elbows in measuring credibility here. :)

    (Not that that's the least bit relevant in actionable 'prospect'.)


    Nonetheless, and real quick; my contention there was that a trumpet couldn't be more or less of the sound, that is a trumpet. And my description pointed of this thinking, was that a true horn could only be a 'neutral' horn. Which i came to learn is called an 'all-around' horn. And that ALL- horns.. are effectively an 'all-around' horn. In the simplest terms. Which was perfect for me.

    My point being, my instincts would have to be right here as well, given refinement's the simplest and most natural motion?


    Incidentally, the colors that these mixes apparently are inclined sound incredible.

    Corinthian Bronz, that's also called Corinthian Brass, is thought to be an alloy of Copper with Gold or Silver, or both.

    Hepatizon, or Black Corinthian Bronz is alloyed with Copper, and what's thought typically to be 8% Silver 8% Gold. It has a dark purplish patina.

    Shakudo, is Copper alloyed with typically 4% Gold/admixture. It's got a blue-purple patina.



    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
  6. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    Hi, Chris,

    'You've left us hanging!'


    No i didn't Lloyd. I mentioned a couple threads back:

    '..i'm workin' on that Bud. [​IMG] It's some good fun.'



    Okay, tell us if you are a trumpet player or not?

    No trick question intended or hidden agenda. You have given so much information, but does it come from research or actual playing something made of brass?

    Seems to me it is a valid question?

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     
  7. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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  8. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Bronze. The Zildjian and Sabian cymbals you are referring to are made from B20 bronze - essentially 80% copper, 20% tin - however with the Zildjian/Sabian formula (Sabian's formula is the same since Sabian is also the Zildjian family - Sabian stands for SAlly BIll and ANdy.) there are also trace elements of lead and silver, and possibly other things as well to make up the secret B20 bronze forumulation.

    Most higher quality cymbals are in fact cast - molten metal is poured into moulds forming cast ingots which are then rolled, reheated, rolled, etc until the metal is thin enough. Then the bell is stamped and the center hole cut. After they get trimmed for roundness comes the hammering and finally the lathing process.

    There are a couple of general beliefs regarding cymbals that often hold true:

    1.) Good cymbals are made from B20 bronze, less expensive cymbals are made from B8 bronze

    2.) Good cymbals are made from cast bronze, less expensive cymbals are made from sheet bronze.

    Paiste is an exception to that due to the fact that they make fine cymbals from B8 sheet bronze, although they do make cast cymbals as well from a proprietary formulation of bronze - presumably B20 or very close, but only Paiste knows for sure regarding the percentages of metals and the process they use to create it.
     
  9. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    No, your right Lloyd; it's a valid question. I wasn't being defensive.

    -Truly.

    When i said i was workin' on it, i was just making a friendly comment in measure of my (pending) player status. Which i've mentioned many times, and from the very first i got here. tatakata knows this already, but he enjoys the distractions. Which is alright. -As it is, it's likely i won't have myself lined up right till the first of the year. Possibly sooner, maybe later. I'm not in a hurry.

    I got to play the trumpet for nearly two weeks- which was better than thirty some years ago. I've had that sound in my head eversince. I've finally got the time now, to be a serious amateur player. Never made much sense to me to play otherwise. I've been familarizing myself with things, closing in on a year now. Given my personality, it's best i get after it slow. :)

    I appreciate you asking, but taking issue of credibility by standard of player or no -in considering things here doesn't add up though. Which was partly my indirect meaning of rubbin' elbows. I understood it wasn't hard feelin's, you asking me. Less i was mistaken, and you think i talk too much- :) Wouldn't be the first time i was accused of being dogged. Which is true enough.

    On point of research, we're only talking about the obvious potential that's clear to everyone. Which i didn't realize till participating in this discussion; and that it's likely been mulled over'a million times already. -And tried to some degree or another already, as Felix mentioned. As it was, the differences weren't deemed worthy endeavor, given a builder could compensate the absence of any gaines in richness/differences, that were realized in the experimentation done way back when. Which brings to the thinking that if a builder can compensate an absence of difference; they'll be equally gifted of flattering differences. Course it has to be acknowledged that these differences come at a cost that doesn't flatter good business generally.

    The only real question is how subtle are the so-called differences in tone that were realized; and could be afforded our enjoyment today? Which is moot point in that any are worthwhile when considering a builder's artistry. -Period. ..End of discussion. :) And dollars to donuts, there'd be plenty of discussion about these differences, that are likely not so subtle, if gold and silver and custom alloy wasn't so dag'gone expensive. Particularly when we add these apparent subtleties to the furthering cumulative benefit/effect, the purity of the Copper Gold and Silver will have, and enhancing character cryogenic treatments will bring.

    Speculating about the extent of the prospective effectiveness here, isn't conjecture, when its founded on the differences that were recognized long before now.

    We don't need a 'scientist' :) -to see there's more waitin' on us by way of materials, particularly in the hands of a good builder. It ain't no big deal though. We're only talking about a whole nother line of trumpets, that'll have different sound and different raw color, than what's available already. But so what- That's just business as usual.

    Course that's a good business to be in. :)



    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
  10. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    Chris,

    Thanks for answering my question about playing the trumpet.

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     

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