Quality of Brass...

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by crowmadic, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    -I appreciate your allowing me to soundboard off the question Lloyd. :)


    My kind thanks-

    Chris


    Incidentally, would you be willing to pay, or anyone for that matter. -Say 20/30% more than's typical of what you'd consider paying for'a horn now -if it had a highly unique sound?


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    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
  2. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    Hi, Chris,

    You asked:

    "Incidentally, would you be willing to pay, or anyone for that matter. -Say 20/30% more than's typical of what you'd consider paying for'a horn now -if it had a highly unique sound?"

    That would probably be a subjective decision based upon many things:skill level, the sound wishing to be achieved, income level permitting cost to be no object, others limited by income from buying more they they can afford. Others who "go into financial danger" buying more than they can afford.

    Other factors include: trumpets continuing to evolve making sounds others want and using different mouthpieces and accessories instead.

    Beyond that, there are some folks who will buy a more expensive horn not realizing (or admitting) tht they don't sound any better on the new horn than they have on the present horn. It depends upon skill level and subjective playing. Others may hear a difference, or they may not. I venture to say that some may not notice the difference in sound from the present horn to the new one. The hearer may not hear the difference between the present horn and/or the new ("cost more") trumpet.:dontknow:

    Lots of subjectivity in play here on that particular question. Perhaps, others may have thoughts about "more expensive being better."

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     
  3. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    Jun 17, 2007
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    Great points all Lloyd, and no question simply because a (new) sound-(different) sound.. given no one's using cryo'd Corinthian Brass -excludes it from how a player picks their horn.

    Ideally, commonality would factor in by way of the material and treatment being adopted by small builders, and a "Yamaha" as well, by example. And if larger makers did opt to use this material & cryo treatment, it'd just be another option request added to the list? No fuss, no muss. With custom builders it could be far more focused in build strategy? Instead of panels, they could use a higher percentage of gold for the weight their looking for. Or a balance of more gold along with the panel in consideration of bracing points the panels serve? Builder options simply increase with new material, is my meaning. Not only with sound options in using variable percentages of the metals in the alloy, but also, how it'll effect physical design? Just some more colors on the wheel's all. Possibly a real high percentage of silver for this -real high in copper for that, and real heavy in gold for this? The same way a silver leadpipe, and a red brass bell are matched up for particular sound.

    (No question, this same tried and true rationale of the (inherent quality) a meatal brings to the table is valid here too, with respect of Corinthian Brass.)

    And if common availability of the material comes about, this'll void any perception of 'exotic'-(exclusivity). Which obviously doesn't matter, given the material's (unique) and evolving sound by way of builder design/player accomplishment. Just like 'standard brass'. -All be it with heightened distinctive quality by comparison? Which isn't better, just different.

    I'm looking at it from left to right in parallel. We've got the history of the horn to now in standard brass, and beside it we apply Corinthian Brass -and beside that, we have this same material and add cryo treatment to it. And beside that, we add the options of the gold & silver percentages in the alloy. All of which have a particular sound, and yet another sound if either crosses into the other. -I don't feel a vertical depiction of what we may consider is better, is the right way to look at it- as most would agree i guess. The Heckel v. Monette Robin mentioned was good example. And he didn't pit one against the other. Just the opposite, but our perception of evolvement does seem to insist on it?

    I suspect given the bulk of material a larger co. can absorb, it may well be that a Yamaha would draw accessibility fairly close? Depending on the percentages of gold and silver they'd use, but generally speaking it's not my impression a lot of gold and silver in the alloy would be needed, to get after that different sound.

    I think with a little time to get settled -a twenty to thirty percent advance in price, would be more like options of ten percent for both the material and the cryo? Course this wouldn't hold with custom focus, but it may well not be too much greater depending on what the player was looking for?

    I guess the easiest thing is to build some demo horns and put'em in the hands of the builders? Or what may be better, is to buy a horn from them -and request if they would.. to use a Corinthian Brass to build it with. See if they like what they hear?

    (As well, there's incredible possibilities in what these horns could look like.)



    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
  4. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    Hi, Chris,

    You make a good point to drive new technologies in brass by giving demos to the builders.

    "I guess the easiest thing is to build some demo horns and put'em in the hands of the builders? Or what may be better, is to buy a horn from them -and request if they would.. to use a Corinthian Brass to build it with. See if they like what they hear?"

    But to be truthful, it would be just as advantageous to provide demos to the PLAYERS. They probably drive innovation more. Without a demand, the Corinthian brass will not go very far.
    It still is the same old story of supply and demand.

    PLAYERS know and "feel" the nuances of the brass instruments they play and are the ones who seek a new sound, or an elusive sound yet to be found around the corner.

    They can't be left out of the equation. They are the consumers and must be convinced about brass that comes at additional cost. It will have to be proved that it will make a positive difference before they buy.

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     
  5. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    Jun 17, 2007
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    Ah, that's true enough Lloyd. Your saying to get some horns to the shows? As many shows as possible; and a sign up list for time share loaners too maybe -and famous players as well?

    I guess the builders who wanted to try the material, with and without the cryo. treatments, would be alright with this?



    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
  6. lmf

    lmf Forte User

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    Indiana USA
    Hi, Chris,

    To put it simply:

    There is no sense building 'em, if no one is given opportunity to play 'em first before buying 'em.

    Of course, there may be those builders who say: "Build 'em and they will try 'em."

    Best wishes,

    Lloyd
     
  7. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    Jun 17, 2007
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    -Thanks Lloyd. Tuff sell to be sure. And i do understand that there's so many alloys of brass.. (if i recall right, it's in the thousands). -That the perception is that any new, or different sound character accomplished by way of a Corinthian Brass, by example. -Can be achieved with one of these many less expensive, and readily available Brass alloys.



    I ain't buyin' it-

    It ain't even gonna be close. :)



    Not that finding a good temper of familiar malleability, won't be challenging.



    C
     
  8. NYTC

    NYTC Forte User

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    Chris,
    let it go.
     
  9. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    Godchaser - please find some help.
     
  10. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    Jun 17, 2007
    Chris,
    let it go.

    :)


    I know you'll pardon my enthusiasm Felix. But i truly don't feel the prospect of these materials represents anymore than a: 'heightened distinctive quality by comparison' of 'standard brass'. Which isn't better or worse, anymore than how cryo'd metal makes for less disturbance of sound, is better or worse. Just different's all, as i see it. Complexity of sound, is what it is, and belongs to the ear of the musician. I wouldn't argue that.

    When i say the differences 'ain't even gonna be close'. I'm not pounding my chest- it's just my instinctive impression and huge enthusiasm to realize the reality of that. As it is, i couldn't be less distracted by notion otherwise. -I know you realize that, given our conversations on other points. I appreciate your friendship to try and steer me. :)

    Lettin' it go's, what i'm doing. And what reason other than interpretation would i have to do otherwise; with regard of accepted ritual in trumpet material- You said yourself it's all been done long before any of us were around. The momentum's in economic rationale, and convenience of myriad material that apparently- is ample for any and all sound under the sun.

    I don't argue the discipline, but there ain't no way that this means there's not distinctive sound waitin' on us. Nothing else makes better sense than to pursue it. Nothing else is reasonable.


    :)


    -And i sure hope this doesn't mean you don't want to build a horn with this material?


    ______




    Godchaser - please find some help.


    :lol:




    t- you don't know the half of it.




    C
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007

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