Question about Double C

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by bach37, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. kctrumpeteer

    kctrumpeteer Piano User

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    In a musical I played in recently the highest notes that we had written was a high C or high D, which is about my current range. I was annoyed at how I thought they were trying to kill us but a friend said that was typical for some musicals. I think playing higher will be like wanting to bench press 300lbs... sure it can be done but it won't be done by trying to lift 295... it will be done by weeks, months, years of working, challenging yourself to go higher and then eventually getting to that goal.
    A guy I'm working with said that if you want to play high, then do it. e.g. practice playing higher or do exercises that challenge your upper range. Arguing about it on this post will never increase your stamina, abilities, etc. However if your highest note is "X" and today you try to play half a step higher you may or may not be able to but if you keep working on it you will get it (and if you can't then get lessons or someone knowledgeable to help you with your technique) and once you get there work on the next step.

    And I also agree with hitting the note while the moon is aligned with the sun doesn't count as much as being able to hit the note and hold it for a whole note or playing it within a piece of music.
     
  2. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    Very few trumpet players have a solid, usable Double C. Something they can rely upon at any moment to play ON THE BANDSTAND with a predictable musical result. Most the posters here exaggerate their abilities and experience.

    Only a small percentage of trumpet players have the capacity within their existing embouchure to blow a solid, musical DHC. Besides determination and perseverance there are physical factors preventing most from scaling that peak.

    If you never develop a solid DHC? It will not hurt your career in the slightest.
     
  3. richtom

    richtom Forte User

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    I, too, have felt that the ridiculous demands placed on the extreme high notes in marching bands is a recipe for disaster for a majority of the the kids forced to do just that. These kids usually don't learn the proper fundamentals required to play properly in the upper register. By upper register I mean above high C on a consistent basis.
    I have known only one high school student who had an anytime, clean, loud, and IN TUNE double high C. He was fortunate to have Bobby Shew teach him Bobby's wedge breathing method at a clinic in his high school and this high school senior took to it instantly. When, as a freshman, he got to Elmhurst College in Illinois, I was fortunate to hear him many times in many different types of playing, both in a section and listening in the audience. I heard him absolutely NAIL double Cs in the 3rd set of the jazz band performance like it was a C in the staff. When I say an anytime double C, I mean pulling it out of mid-air BY ITSELF, not working your way up to it.
    I remember a story about an up-and-coming young player who was taking some lessons with Forrest Buchtel and remarked to Buchtel that Ren Schilke said one way to test your range was to pull out your horn and play a high C cold, as in the first thing in the morning. The young player did just that and Buchtel said, he too, had lessons with Schilke but that wasn't the high C Schilke meant. Buchtel pulled out his horn and proceeded to nail a screaming double C and said THAT was the high C Schilke meant.
    I have personally met or performed with 5 players who "own" double C's at any time. Nick Drozdoff, Forrest Buchtel, Roger Ingram, Jeanne Pocius Dorismund, and Jack Wengrosky, who is the above mentioned trumpet player as a high school senior and Elmhurst College player. Maybe others over the years had double C's but never had need to use it.
    I've hit maybe 20 in my life, never in a concert, and only 3 or 4 were loud, clean, and in tune. My own thoughts about many posters on this and other forums are lots of bragging, no proof. You can bet your sweet bippy that many, if not all, trumpet players in major orchestras can nail a double C when they need to. They just don't have the need to on a regular basis. Jeff Curnow has a killer double C.
    RT
     
  4. Randall Nelson

    Randall Nelson Mezzo Piano User

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    ..me neither.....just never been interested in it since high school.....and now I don't even give a rip that I am not interested.

    Randy
     
    Solar Bell likes this.
  5. ultratrumpet

    ultratrumpet Piano User

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    Four Essential Ingredients to Playing Dbl. High C on Trumpet

    1. Wind Power
    Definition: The velocity at which the air moves.
    How to develop:
    A. Physical exercises.
    B. Breathing exercises.
    C. Blowing long tones until all the air is exhausted, and longer.
    D. Power blowing with a full, strong, confident sound.
    E. Consciously blowing stronger as you ascend.

    2. Tongue Level
    Definition: The front portion of the tongue finding the right level in the mouth for any given note on horn.
    How to develop:
    A. Practice saying " TAW--EEE--TAW--EEE ," and whistling up and down, in order sense or feel the action of the tongue.
    B. Practice slurring exercises, including flexibility studies, lip trills, and glissando's.
    C. Practice interval exercises.
    D. Think " TEE as you ascend and " TAW as you descend.

    3. Embouchure Contraction.
    Definition: The action of the muscles of the face surrounding the lips that hold the lips in place so they will vibrate. These muscles draw towards the mouthpiece as you ascend and relax, or draw away from the mouthpiece, as you descend.
    How to develop:
    A. Allow the lips to draw toward the mouthpiece as you ascend, and relax as you descend.
    B. Practice all exercise that ascend and descend, such as scales, chords, and intervals.

    4. Mouthpiece Pressure:
    Definition: The degree of force with which the mouthpiece is pressed against the lips.
    How to develop:
    Don't try to develop this !!! Let it happen.

    WIND POWER + TONGUE LEVEL + EMBOUCHURE CONTRACTION + MOUTHPIECE PRESSURE =
    THE " FEEL " FOR THE NOTE YOU ARE PLAYING

    High Note Practice Routine Should Include:

    1. Wind power exercises.
    2. Upper register exercises.
    3. Low tones for relaxing the lips.
    4. Tongue level exercises.

    NOTE: This is only a high note routine. You have a lot more to develop than
    just high notes. High notes alone are detrimental.

    YOU WILL ONLY DEVELOP THE ABILITY TO PLAY DOUBLE HIGH C BY FAITHFULLY PRACTICING A SYSTEMATIC AND PROGRESSIVE ROUTINE.

    William B. Knevitt

    Claude Gordon said publicly concerning Bill, " In all years of teaching, I
    have never had a student who understands how to teach trumpet as
    does Bill Knevitt. "

    http://www.latorremusic.com
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  6. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    Well, I'm really not qualified to pipe on the subject but this is the intertubes, so I will throw my 2 cents in the bucket anyway.

    Truth is, very few actually have a musically useable DHC, even among pros. It is kind of a stunt, can be fun when used well by someone who can do it well, becomes very annoying when done at inappropriate times or if not done well. As far as I'm concerned, it becomes annoying even when done well by someone who can do it well, if they just do it too often and it starts taking over the music. That's why I can't listen to Maynard or Jon Faddis for more than 10 minutes, just my taste.

    I find the lead playing, and its use in the arrangements, to be exemplary in the Miles Davis/Gil Evans recordings. Spice, but the main dish is not overwhelmed. Although I am only an amateur and nowhere near DHC in range, my opinion is that it is definitely the one thing without which one can still be an accomplished, all-around artist. Unless you're super strong on everything else, making it a goal and dedicating big chunks of daily time to pursue it might be a waste, as you could miss out on many, many other things that will deliver way more musical bang for the buck.
     
  7. ultratrumpet

    ultratrumpet Piano User

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    Allen Vizzutti makes a correct statement when he states that, " 99% of the music you'll ever have to play and 99% of the money you will make will be from high C on down " but yet he also states, " you'll never play the high notes without trying them. " This is true for one has to develop the feel for the entire range of the instrument.
     
  8. ultratrumpet

    ultratrumpet Piano User

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    The biggest obstacle from preventing players from increasing their range is that of using to large an aperture for playing in the high register. You can can have all the wind power in the world and you can have the tongue at the right level but if the aperture is wide and open you will never play in the extreme upper register.

    " The tongue rising in the mouth to make the inside of mouth shallow, is the " Knack " of producing high tones."
    Herbert L Clarke ( Brass Playing is No Harder...Claude Gordon )
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
  9. EdMann

    EdMann Mezzo Forte User

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    That's just not correct. There's more than one way to do it. Roger Ingram details that well in his book, as have others.

    ed
     
  10. ozboy

    ozboy Mezzo Forte User

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    Local 357 said
    Most of the posters here exaggerate their abilities and experience
    No! Never! i thought most of them were the love children of Cat and Faddis.ROFL
     

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