Question or 2.

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Warren, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. Warren

    Warren Pianissimo User

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    Nov 19, 2007
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    Been a while since my last post...I found out that if I spend the hour I spend here everyday on my trumpet it's an extra hour of practice.:-)

    I have a question though: What are the fingerings above G3? The G two octaves up from the 2nd line G on the treble cleff.

    Also..Does anyone playing on a Bach 3C find that they can't play loud? Went to a practice last night with a wind ensemble of about 500, about 100 trumpets and I can't hear myself play. So afterwords I went to chat to one of the pro's and he said he moved to an 11.5C to help his volume. Is there any truth in that or do I just need to practice louder?
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I use the same fingerings as an octave lower. It is easier to keep track of what note that I am playing when incorporating "old habits".

    Your problem is not "volume". It is a characteristic of our hearing called masking. When you are subjected to sounds in the exact same frequency range with a similar or more complex overtone structure, your brain cannot sort the two sounds out. Switching to a smaller mouthpiece thins your sound out, making the overtone structure different enough to prevent masking. A smaller mouthpiece cannot be louder!

    This "masking" effect is what makes mp3 files possible. Everything that the encoder assumes that we can't hear (ie. is masked) is left out, making the file much smaller.

    Many times we are told to play more softly when volume is not the issue at all. The very dense, harmonically complex sound of many modern trumpets with big mouthpieces masks the sound of strings and woodwinds. Even playing more softly does not always "solve" the problem. Lighter equipment could.
     
  3. Warren

    Warren Pianissimo User

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    Nov 19, 2007
    South Africa
    Thanks for the help Rowuk. A lot of people can play the trumpet, like the guy who gave me the advice last night, but not many people KNOW the trumpet as well as you do. I wanted to question his advice about moving to an 11.5C, but he's a pro so I doubted myself first.

    His other comment was that a 3C makes you lazy. I would think that an 11.5C makes you "lazier" than a 3C as the 11.5 is probably a bit easier to squeeze out some higher notes on. My thinking incorrect?
     
  4. commakozzi

    commakozzi Pianissimo User

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    Oct 30, 2007
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    I wouldn't just assume that the pro didn't know what he was talking about, and I'm not saying that you are. But, it's possible that he would assume you're aware of the phenomenon of masking. Saying a 3C makes you lazy, though... hmm. I can only guess that he would say that because the 3C maybe has a sharper bite which might help you control your sounds and pitch easier than the softer bite of the 11.5C. I wouldn't do it though if I were you. I used to be a big Bach fan, because well... that's what I grew up playing, and I had pretty much settled on a 3C my second year in college. However, a guy I was playing with in a band several years ago (this is after college... WAY after) introduced me to the Marcinkiewicz E13*C Chuck Findley. I tried so many mouthpieces... you name it, I've probably played it, and this thing is the best thing I've found for me.

    Keeping in mind that masking is probably most of your issue, I still have found that the standard Bach 3C off the shelf has a much too small bore size for me, and I've felt the same with it as you probably do. I feel I'm just being swallowed up and that I should be able to hear myself better. Now, I know that we can have a tendency to play sharp to be heard or to play brighter (with smaller mouthpieces) to be heard, but that's just not it. I had my 3C bored out and solved that problem without sacrificing sound, precision, etc. You have to be careful though. I don't remember what number I had it bored out to, but you can go too far very easily and mess up the mouthpiece. Not a big deal so much with a Bach, but you know what I mean. By the way, if you look at the comparison on Marcinkiewicz's website or catalog for the E13, it says that it's close to a Bach 7E or Schilke 13A4A... no way man. I used to use a 13A4A for lead playing and they're completely different mouthpieces. I have a great pedal range with this Marcinkiewicz, something I couldn't do with that Schilke. I guess you get the picture that I'm a Marcinkiewicz convert huh?
     
  5. Jude

    Jude Piano User

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    Dec 2, 2007
    Is that Getzen you're listing along with the B&S something new since then?
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The issue is that a 3C is relatively easy to play. There is room if your chops swell and the rim has enough bite so you still get a clear sound, even if you haven't been practicing much. A small mouthpiece is not easier if you want to get a big sound and/or volume.

    To set the record straight, there are 2 reasons for a mouthpiece choice: comfort and sound. I consider using a mouthpiece that showcases laziness to be pretty stupid. We do not always have time to prepare 100% and our audiences deserve not being disappointed. Use what works! Do not unnecessarily handicap yourself. I do use a small mouthpiece when I play my piccolo trumpet however.

    It was never a goal in my life to be heard above 100 other trumpets. When I train the brass section of our local wind ensemble, we go after musical goals not noise propagation.
     
  7. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

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    It was never a goal in my life to be heard above 100 other trumpets. When I train the brass section of our local wind ensemble, we go after musical goals not noise propagation.[/QUOTE]


    I totally agree with Rowuk, but, I would use a different term than he has used in previous postings to define what our goal in an ensemble should be. The term "mask' is probably correct, but, I prefer the term 'blend' to define losing our own playing in that ensemble. I have been told by my friend and tutor,( principal trumpet in our local symphony orchestra ), that if you can hear yourself over the rest of your section, you are either out of tune, or not coordinated to the rest of the section.


    On the subject of mouthpieces; For ensemble work I use a common Bach 7C, which lets me blend quite nicely and feel s good to me. For gospel hymns and other melodic solos I use an antique York #41, which gives me a wealth of overtones and just a hint of brilliance, not good in an ensemble.


    OLDLOU>>
     
  8. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

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    It was never a goal in my life to be heard above 100 other trumpets. When I train the brass section of our local wind ensemble, we go after musical goals not noise propagation.[/QUOTE]


    I totally agree with Rowuk, but, I would use a different term than he has used in previous postings to define what our goal in an ensemble should be. The term "mask' is probably correct, but, I prefer the term 'blend' to define losing our own playing in that ensemble. I have been told by my friend and tutor,( principal trumpet in our local symphony orchestra ), that if you can hear yourself over the rest of your section, you are either out of tune, or not coordinated to the rest of the section.


    On the subject of mouthpieces; For ensemble work I use a common Bach 7C, which lets me blend quite nicely and feel s good to me. For gospel hymns and other melodic solos I use an antique York #41, which gives me a wealth of overtones and just a hint of brilliance, not good in an ensemble where playing in unison is required.


    OLDLOU>>
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I would differentiate as such: if the blend is good, you only hear your absence, if you are masked, it doesn't matter if you are playing or not!

    100 wailing trumpets has no redeeming social value, one more trying to pile on top has no musical significance. That kind of power under control could change governments though. Pubescence will prefer anarchy to true power and therefore always be easy to manipulate - if you can stand the noise1
     
  10. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    The A above G3 can be a squirley note--Bill Chase used 123, Maynard used whatever. You might want to experiment with 3rd valve, or even 2nd on the A.

    Being chided for playing above G3 on a 3C sounds more like jealousy than sound advice.
     

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