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Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by jvbailey3, Dec 5, 2008.
The Bandroom Parts/Pads: Trumpet Tuba Saxophone Clarinet
I stand corrected about monel but my info came from the 1980s. It's refreshing to see a trumpet company still care about their horns and not sink into the corporate numbers game which has ruined so many trumpet makers. A musicial instrument is so much more than just a product.
I checked out the bandroom parts site. the Silver Flair jvbailey3 has hasn't been made since the 1980s. in fact the Silver Flair King came out out with in the mid 80s is a completely different horn. A stock kit may not align the pistons correctly. Considering what you paid for the horn in 74 and what it's worth now in very good condition, I would send it to a pro shop for an acid cleaning, percision valve alignment and compression test. if the valves need it get a valve rebuild. of course the very first thing you need to do is have it checked for acid rot which could make the horn worthless in value except possibly to you for senimental reason.
I would not let Monel valves sway me. Nickle valves are for all practical purpose's a better choice. Monel is a better material in theory but in real world use in trumpet's it has not faired that great.Just because they monel is a better material on paper does not mean it is the best choice for piston valves on a trumpet.Depending on what stage the valves go intot he valve caseing a Monel valve can be dmaged from the braceing process by becomes hard in some area's and soft inother's causeing an anbnormal wear pattern to occur ie a taper. This is why Getzen droped Monel valves and went back to nickle valves. Look at how nice most trumpets with nickle valves seem to hold up! We even see copper valves on 100 year old trumpets all the time on ebay that look like new and have good compression. In fact my son's rental horn which needs to go back this 18th has monel valves and they are junk. I have three other trumpets in my house that have nickle valves and all of them are in better shape then the monel valves in an otherwise brand new trumpet. In fact some of the bigest piles of junk ie chineese made trumpets selling by the bucket loads on ebay have monel valves!
So instead of worring about the valve material just make sure the valves are in good shape. Look for brands you know and trust like Bach,Con,Bundy,Holton,Jupiter etc......In fact if you go to that Band store with a banner at the top of this sites main page usualy I think they have Holton 602's for sale for $500 and some change brand new when other places list them for $1025. My son play's a Holton 602 and loves his. It plays very well and easily it slots well and has good intonation and is a solid design. The valves are solid etc......My sons is from the late 1970's and his still plays like new and is almost dent free because they are built really solid.
Music & Arts Center: News THis is the company selling Holton T602's for $500 and some change. Probably the only thing better interms of students trumpets would have to be a Yamaha but again I doubt it really for the extra money you pay I doubt you would get more for the money. As far as students trumpets go the Holton 602 in it's various forms over the year's is almost an icon of what a student trumpet should be and do. I do not know how close todays 602 is to my sons 1970 one but I have to imagine they are still a great product. For the $500 range for a new trumpet I think they are a steal. Good luck though shoping is never fun. My son likes that his is American made and how easy it is to play.
Oh and keep the old King Silver Flair. The worst possable thing would be if the valves where shot to death you would have to send the thing to Anderson Plateing and spend $360 to get the valves built back up and bore's bored out to a new and straight diameter and they would be good as new. The old King Flair's are considered a proffesional level horn by all but the most snobish of players and they sounded really great. Back when I was a kid people wanted the old kign flair's the way today's kids all want Bach Strad's.
Thanks all. I have brought her in for a tune up here locally. She is scheduled for a chemical bath and a good polishing. I asked him if he thought I needed new springs, he said let him clean it up and I would be surprised how well she'll come back. He was working the valves as I asked. He seemed to really enjoy the horn as he was looking at it. He said he would replace the pads though. It was nice to see someone else look at her with the same affection I have for her.
Now, I have to wait a week or two before I can get her back and start playing her again. I feel like a kid before Christmas - how appropriate.
When discussing valve materials, I have not seen any mention made of thermal expansion. Steel based pistons will suffer thermal expansion inside the bores as the temperature rises, and the bores of course have a different rate of thermal expansion than the valves, being made of a completely different material.
I have seen many players report that their valves are smooth and sweet when cold and warming up, but become stuck when the horn is warm, and then they free up again when the horn cools down. This suggests that the valve clearance reduces to zero or close to it due to differential expansion of valve and bore.
Monel metal is stated to have a very low coefficient of thermal expansion.
I believe that this property weighs in its favor as a valve material, making the valve action more consistent throughout the session and reducing differential expansion effects.
I am not saying that monel valves are superior but they appear to minimise an undesirable characteristic of steel based valves.
Surely this is an important additional factor to consider.
I would say get a none contact infared temp. guage even a $29 chineese one will work just fine for this. Record the ambient temp, record the cold temp of the valve case and pistons after an hour or two of playing record the temp's again and assess the valves feel. Reoil is need be and repeat. I suspect that the fluid used to oil the valves is a bigger problem as temp.'s vary then the alloy used for the valves. Now go look up those alloys and they expansion and contraction rates and compare with your note's. I am not 100% sure sense no one has paid my to conduct any research in this area and I have not done it on my own accord either. I would be very suprise to see the internal temp. of the valves reach an area that would come close to high enough to cause thermal expansion. Now granted my two area's of expert experince are automotive and aerospace but I have delt with this type of stuff a lot both on finished products and with assembly machinery at the factory level. In fact I am one of the people that helped one of the big three fix their problem with brake rotor warpage. One of the things I did was increase the amount of nickle inthe cast iron and the graphite. I could not go too high though because nickle while extremly heat resitant is not very good at resiting abrasion wear. THe graphite and nickle increase also made the parts easier to machine a nice surface finish. I cannot discus the other things I did tothe process becasue of confidentiality agreement but I can share what i just shared. You find that allow's like Waspalloy used in jet turbine engines has about as much nickle as you dare use in a part that spins as fast as it does because the added nickle makes it extremly resitant to high temp damage but it does increase decrease the abrasion resististance but that is not a problem because these shafts ride on bearing that have lubricant forced to them at really high pressure and flow rates to keep them cool. I do not know what alloy of nickle is being used by Getzen but I would be flabergasted to find out that nickle was not more then up to the job of sealing and directing air through a trumpet valve case or valve engine for a long long period of time with proper care.
When did trumpeting turn into rocket science?