Range Improvement

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by PaigeBurnett, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Joe44

    Joe44 Pianissimo User

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    Burnett, I have the same problem, on a good day I can get high C for a few minutes. After asking the same question I found that the only real solution is practice, practice, practice. I realised after 4 years that I was practising in the wrong way. Seems like 4 years wasted to me. Oh well.
     
  2. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    ummm -- if you learn something from your experience -- THEN YOUNG FELLA you have NOT wasted any TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. richtom

    richtom Forte User

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    If the air was faster up high, it would run out quicker making the extreme upper register almost impossible. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FASTER AIR. The air flow stays the same - you are just controlling it more. Do you actually think playing the Brandenburg requires faster air and blowing your brains out? Do it that way and you won't make it past the first 16 bars.
    Here's a simple experiment. Play from low C to G in the staff with a crescendo up to the G. When you hit the G get as loud as you can. Count the seconds till you run out of air. Now start on the same G in the staff. Crescendo up to the 4 line D. Now, crescendo the D as loud as you can and count the seconds. If you are using your breath properly, you can hold the D in the staff longer and louder that the previous exercise. I won't take you up to a high C, because I think some of you here can't play it without shoving the horn through your face. It is far better to think of low notes rolling out of your bell for just a few feet and upper register moving out of your bell further out into the room or auditorium.
    Why do some of you think it is easy to play high by "pushing" more air? That is pure rubbish.
    If you'd like, you can argue with the teachings of Vincent Chicowicz, Arnold Jacobs, Bill Vacchiano, and other great teachers who researched this for years. I guess some of you think you know better than they do.
    Sure, do try to put the back of your tongue up to the roof of your mouth. See what happens to the sound WHEN YOU CUT THE AIR FLOW OFF.
    I suggest those of you "experts" read the Luis Loubriel book on Chicowicz's teaching methods "Back to Basics for Trumpeters". You'll learn something and see how wrong you are.

    Rich T.
     
  4. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    OBVIOUSLY we all know what pure RUBBISH is? and in the following video -- we all can OBVIOUSLY see that Maynard was NOT PUSHING MORE AIR -- after all Maynard knew what this RUBBISH was all about. WELL YOU PEOPLE DECIDE for yourself -- is Maynard pushing more air -- or making it look that way????

    of course in later years he figured out HOW TO NOT MAKE THE HIGH NOTES look like they didn't need extra air or something (actually they became so easy he didn't even use much slow air either) --I guess Maynard didnt know too much in those early years --glad he learned what Rubbish was, and what it was not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I think Maynard biffs a note in the first line anyhow -- trying to use TOOOO MUCH AIR -- glad he learned.
    Maynard Ferguson plays "Maynard Ferguson" - YouTube
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  5. jiarby

    jiarby Fortissimo User

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    Why do you need to be able to play a high c?? There are no shortcuts that will take you from G to C, just dilligent practice over time.

    What do you currently do (practice wise) to build endurance and range.

    At the G, I think the partials are still a fair distance apart.... G-Bb-C-D-E-F so the G to Bb is a wider jump than the rest of the upper register.
    You can build up to it by doing soft chromatic scales, such as Clarke #1, in the upper part of your register. Then you can build up by half steps.
    Lip slurs in the Colin book too.

    There is not much you can do in the short term, though... If you could buy range then everyone could play a double c. You have to build it on a solid foundation over time.
     
  6. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Does this not suggest manipulation of the aperture?

    Also, Chicowicz's teachings involved using the air to do the work: http://www.virtualtrumpetstudio.com/brassconcepts.htm
    While maintaining relaxation and allowing the air to flow.

    "Always aim for the core of the sound - the center - where airspeed, lip tension and wavelength are match perfectly, to achieve maximum resonance."

    "Do not manipulate while playing."

    "Let go of the embouchure as a controlling force. Thrust the air."

    "Concentrate on the speed of the air stream to automatically tighten the muscles "just enough"."

    My teacher is a Cichowicz student.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  7. richtom

    richtom Forte User

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    Mark, I have studied with a Chicowicz student and have a dear friend who actually was in the Chicago Symphony as a semi-regular and sub. He also studied with Chicowicz, Herseth, Gordon, Jacobs, Schilke, and a few others. He has explained to me how those great players and teachers what they meant by air flow and speed.
    This website is chock full of know-littles both young and old with NO experience.
    I have had enough of the BS here and will leave.
    Rich T.
     
  8. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    Hey, don't go away mad --- but I agree 100% with you, it is time for you to leave --- but try to have a great day anyhow ROFL ROFL ROFL
     
  9. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Richtom -- I did not intend to anger you. But I would like a proper discussion, with an exchange of ideas. What I seem to be getting from some is "You're wrong. Use air properly," with no description of what "properly" truly means. If my ideas are incorrect, I'm glad to know, but I need some counter idea to contrast with.

    I was also going to add to my previous post, before you replied to it, the following:

    I don't believe playing high means playing LOUDLY. I never said that. I said it required faster air. This can mean adding air without chaing aperture can facilitate moving to a higher pitch (air will move faster). But this can be accomplished playing loudly or softly.

    Perhaps that was a distinction which I failed to provide?

    And to the Original Poster: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111013
    Trumpet herald forum post on a similar topic (range). If you read the posts, their posts concur with mine, with an addition of the idea of "practice towards the top of your range to develop muscular control there".
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    To all,

    the physics of the trumpet is much different than some of the simplistic arguments here would let us believe. It is a case where only knowing half of something is dangerous.

    1) The air speed is not critical, the air pressure is.
    2) producing a tone on a trumpet merely requires enough "buzz" to get a standing wave set up in the horn. The sympathetic vibration between the horn and the lips keeps the tone alive until our AIR PRESSURE goes away.
    3) Bernoulli does not apply here. We are blowing into a trumpet cup with a fixed aperature (the throat) The pressure in the cup supports our lips from the mouthpiece side and also acts as a low pass filter. The deeper the cup, the more the lip vibration is modified.
    4) where you are missing the most is in the basic function of a trumpet. It is not "amplifying" our buzz, the trumpet is a resonant device and only needs a bit of help to get the standing wave going. Increasing the pressure forces a division in the wavelength in the tubing (Partials). One wavelength is pedal C, 2 is our low C, 3 is the second line G, 4-third space C. As we get above the staff, the trumpets efficiency gets lower and more effort is required to maintain the pressure preserving the "overblown" fundemental.

    When we pucker (or mash the mouthpiece against our lips), the tissue is acoustically HARDER and resonates at a higher frequency. The lips themselves open and close like a switch, they do not vibrate like reeds. The pressure of our air and pressing our lips together causes the aperature to blow open then close. The air and lip pressure have to work together to get the standing wave set up for the pitch desired. Speed in this case does not help open the closed lips. Here are some interesting links:

    IWK Brass Research
    Simulation of Brass Instruments

    Whenever we talk about speed, we have to talk about acceleration. All of you geniuses can figure out how with a resonant system like the trumpet, a jump of 2 or 3 octaves is possible without smearing up or down? Don't forget that the mouthpiece throat has a fixed size and limits the ultimate airflow quantity!

    This crap about speed just does not want to go away, although it can be demonstated very easily that it isn't necessary. Many years ago, I glued a headphone speaker to a mouthpiece. I played back various waveforms and a squarewave gave me a very believable trumpet sound if it was tuned to the natural resonance of the horn. Because there is no "overblow" possible, the odd frequencies for G, E, Bb (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10,th, 11th,... partial) had a very artificial sound.

    The amount of air does NOT control dynamics, leveraging the efficiency of the system controls dynamics, breath support is only one factor out of many. Speed is just plain BS.

    Kingtrumpets temper tantrum is even more confusing. Maynard had superior breath control and even so had several ruptures due to the air PRESSURE that he generated. That is just part of the game when you are one of the most extreme players in the world. A pretty bad example for a struggling high scool player however!
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011

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