Range Improvement

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by PaigeBurnett, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

    Jul 11, 2010
    Gainesville, FL
    Thank you Rowuk for a detailed reply! I'll be sure to investigate more thoroughly what you have presented (for my benefit).
  2. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

    Sep 20, 2009
    New York State USA
    well maybe kingtrumpet had a temper tantrum, and maybe he didn't -- Maynard illustrates that there is obviously (extreme air going someplace - whether that is faster, or more volume, or more pressure I do NOT know) and I don't think that is fantasy or BS. Maynard may be the extreme example, but if one views other HIGH note youtube or "in person" examples (Arturo has another good vid), they will find that virtually NO ONE makes high notes look easy, or that it is just good technique, and that whether it is a resonant wave or some other aspect of physics -- one thing is assured whether you are a high school student, or a confused adult --- HIGH notes, with good sound, playability, and reproducibility does NOT happen overnight, and does NOT come without a price in practice time, or discipline, or as you say rowuk -- without EARNING THEM --- and there now I somewhat agree with you-- tantrum or NOT -- ROFL ROFL ROFL

    ps. AUSSIE Beer is better than UK beer -- now that is pure rubbish and BS --- cause ""FEDERAL Treasurer Wayne Swan has approved US brewer SABMiller's $9.9 billion takeover of the Foster's Group. -- - the British are coming -- they just bought out Fosters --- ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
  3. PaigeBurnett

    PaigeBurnett New Friend

    Nov 18, 2011
    This was a dangerous topic wasn't it .....
    Well thanks to all of you anyways, I will consider all the possibilities :-) Once the school year is over I am getting private lessons during the summer to hopefully keep improving my playing, Thanks everyone!!!!! You were so helpful you don't even understand. Its nice to be able to get the opinions from people who I would consider to be experts!
  4. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

    Sep 20, 2009
    New York State USA
    Kingtrumpet would like to say one more thing in REFERENCE to the BS people.
    ..........After taking most of the afternoon to read my resources on acoustics, and dig up some other Physics Wave stuff (open tubes, Lambda, length of tubes, diameters, reflected waves, and standing waves, ect. ..... it becomes more understandable that:

    """As the player plays higher, the point in the bell where the sound wave is reflected moves toward the bell, which means that more and more energy is lost, and less is reflected back to the mouthpeice. This is why it is increasingly difficult to play very high notes. Once the trumpet has reached E above the treble staff, there is very little energy if any that is reflected, and the trumpet then simply becomes a megaphone for the lips."""

    which requires me to ask the BS people -- in reference to AIR -- what form does the EXTRA ENERGY come from (in notes above the E above the staff), it must come from air --- and enough energy to overcome the effects of the reflected wave, and able to form a decent audible wave that extends from the bell (cause you need to overcome the pressure gradient on the outside of the bell to get "sound" --- otherwise a standing wave that can't be heard -- would then NOT be audible......
    so we should agree that EXTRA ENERGY is supplied by the PERSON in the static setup of the horn.

    AND WHEN ALL THE PHYSICS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE BS --- the astounding conclusion from the Physicists is this::

    ........., but the actual physics of real instruments - once you add sound holes, valves, keys, mouthpieces, and bells - are incredibly complex, and theoretical physicists are still studying the subject and making new discoveries.

    SO THE REAL BS is in those of you who confess that YOU KNOW HOW the trumpet works in conjunction with the person using it!!!!!!!!!!!! the vote is still out on that -- even in the "scientific" world of acoustics and physics professionals

    thank you for your time
  5. Pete Anderson

    Pete Anderson Pianissimo User

    Feb 27, 2008
    The lips resisting the air is just as important. Air pressure is basically just a product of that, no?

    If you increase air pressure without increasing resistance via puckering, mashing the mouthpiece, rolling in, etc, all you get is a louder note of the same pitch. On the other hand, if you increase lip resistance without also increasing air pressure, you will ascend but the sound will be softer and less full, or the vibration will stop because there isn't enough air pressure.

    It's all about the balance of lip resistance and air pressure. I think it's also worth noting, though, that when an embouchure is working "efficiently", the amount of extra resistance needed to ascend is so small that it's barely noticeable. Many great players assert that they "don't do anything with their lips" when they play, and "all the lips do is vibrate". This is not true, but they are probably doing so little that it feels like nothing is happening.

    I think I pretty much agree with everything you wrote, I just felt the need to stress how important it is that it's a balance of resistance and air. If you're missing one or the other, the system doesn't work.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  6. codyb226

    codyb226 Banned

    Mar 9, 2011
    Florida, US

    Told you so.....Tempers flair, kind of like a king silver flair. Im kidding, kingtrumpet.
  7. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

    Jul 11, 2010
    Gainesville, FL
    Mmm. This post is quite enlightening! Thank you Pete, that is good information to note! And a good elaboration of Rowuk's post, as well.
  8. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

    Sep 20, 2009
    New York State USA
    that's good that you are only kidding ---ELSE I was going to send you a pair of drumsticks so you could be a drummer --- then that would take the "SMART" attitude away from you ROFL ROFL ROFL ---- "did you hear about the guy who wanted to hang around with muscians??" -- oh that was the drummer ROFL ROFL ROFL -- whoops, "reserve those comments and jokes for the LOUNGE -- this ain't no BS thread here". ROFL ROFL ROFL
  9. BrotherBACH

    BrotherBACH Piano User

    Oct 5, 2010
    Maybe I can help resolve some of the conflict. I believe that most of the posts are either talking about the same thing but from different perspectives, or using different terms to describe the same thing. Clyde Hunt writes that this is a typical problem in trumpet pedagogy. As a result these concepts are VERY difficult to grasp for the beginner who reads on their own and encounters conflicting information.

    One of my teachers makes me write an essay after every lesson to put into my own words the concepts that he teaches me so that I can undertsand what I need to do. We then go through an iterative process until I get it right. He was not only a well-known professional and teacher but has an excellent grasp of physics. My most recent lesson was on tongue arch and range development.

    Based on my most recent lessons, Rowuk is correct that the lips do not act as a thumb on a garden hose. BUT, it is the tongue that serves this function. My teacher refers to the inside of the mouth as the "inner embrouchure".

    Arching the tongue creates a venturi tube inside the mouth. The wider portion of the tube behind the arch towards the back of the mouth and throat and the narrow portion of the tube in front the arch towards the lips. As the tongue rises, the bore of the venturi tube decreases and the air speed towards the lower lips increases (Bernoulli's principle in action). This increases the speed of the lip vibrations and the note gets higher. At the same time, air power (volume) after the arch also decreases, so the notes get softer (also Bernoulli's principle in action). If you wish to increase loudness, there must be a concomittant increase in the air power (volume) before the arch. This is why breathing and air support is so important. The outter embrouchure which supports the lips should adjust to the air stream to keep them vibrating. In this sense, I also agree with Rowuk that there are a whole bunch of variable that must be coordinated together and only countless hours of practice can teach you how to balance all the variables correctly.

    The following imagery is very useful to me: “Air is equal to the gas pedal of a car and the inner embouchure is the gear shift. The tongue is like the steering wheel, directing where the air is supposed to go."

    This is why one of my favorite exercises is by Jason Carder called "Advanced Major Scale Extensions" which includes a lip bend at the end of each scale. The exercise really hits home the balance between tongue levels, air speed, and minimal embrouchure tension necessary to maintain a note.

    I hope this all helps.

    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Bernoulli is wrong here for a couple of reasons. The resistance at the lip "aperature" as well as the throat of the mouthpiece cause the airflow to back up, allowing an increase of pressure. Bernoulli would only apply if we did not have the high pressure point in front of the venturi.

    The air behind the lips is comparable to Direct Current, it blows the lips open, the lipstrength closes the opening and everything starts over again until the resonance in the horn helps keep the lips jumpstarted. Please note that the abdominal muscles that apply pressure to the lungs to help us expel air can only push. When they push and the mouth is shut, we have a uniform high pressure throughout the throat and mouth regardless of what the tongue does. If the tongue were in fact a venturi, why can we doubletongue above high C? Wouldn't the collapse of the venturi due to the K vowel in a double tongue reduce the pressure - you bet? Bernoulli does not work here.

    The actual conversion of "pulsed DC" is turned into "Alternating Current" or a sound by the resonance of the horn. The more efficient the air/chops synchronization, the less air that we need for the same frequency/volume. Inefficient embouchures allow air to escape - a greater DC component that keeps the embouchure blown more open. Strengthening our chops in an intelligent way helps keep the aperature doing its natural best. We cannot control this efficiency by an embouchure "set". We can only influence it by having the required breath control synchronized with the chops fine motor activity - naturally tempered with good ears and sound concept.

    The main problem with this discussion is that the basic function of the trumpet is not recognized.It is not a megaphone. It is a leaky resonator.

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