RE: How do I improvise to hymns without a written sheet note.

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by tjer52, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    I'm sure you know, for reasons I don't need to say again, if I drank a fifth I positively wouldn't be able to play anything and the consequence is more likely that such would be permanent unless Gabriel needed yet another trumpet in his orchestra. That sure would be a very tough competition among all the greats.
     
  2. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Yeah, you can do it in reverse of the steps in my method, but we end up the same, and I agree that if you've a tenor part it usually has more pizzazz in final performance combined with the straight melody of the treble for a duet.
     
  3. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

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    Hawaian homey
    I'm still lost. Are you saying that the distance between the distance between the second line and the third line is two half steps?
     
  4. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Yes, it is, unless only one or the other is sharped or flated, but if both are sharped or flated it also is. No, we are NOT changing note values viz a B to a C. The distance between a C & C# is a semi-tone (half-step) as is the distance between a Bb and a B for examples. Somehow it seems to me that you are not seeing the relationship of notes between the bass clef and treble clef. In addition to a trumpet / cornet, do you also double on an instrument as plays in the bass clef as I do? It's simple, without transposition it is just octave shifting. The displacement of two semi-tones rise in the bass clef only makes it only appear as if it were in the treble clef. You may be considering such mathematically of the total number of semi tones in a whole octave rise of the notes, but visually such isn't necessary. Yes, from A to B there are 2, from B to C only 1, from C to D there are 2, from D to E there are 2, from E to F only 1, and F to G there are 2, and from G to A there are 2 semi tones (half steps). Look at a piano keyboard to understand this arrangement of notes. It is only a semi-tone from a white key to a black key or a black key to a white key. Thus, there are 12 semi-tones (half steps) from A to A. Another school of thought states there is a whole tone between white keys adjacent to each other without a black key between them and I'll not dispute this, but I'm not a piano player. Still, such would make 14 semi-tones from A to A instead of 12. I just don't hear the imbalance in the chromatic scale of an octave on brass instruments (if I stay in tune, as is not always). Seemingly, no teacher or director / conductor has told me otherwise ... yet.
     
  5. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

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    Ed, I don't want to belabour this. Obviously you have your way of looking at this which works and is very logical to you. For some reason my mind just gets muddled everytime you try to explain it to me, sorry. Your patience is likely running thin by now. So setting that aside, since it seems beyond me, alternately, could this also work?

    Looking at the bass clef just visually now, not transposing pitches or anything like that yet, just looking at it, to "see" a passage in treble clef - could'nt one also just visualise the notes up a fourth and in the transposed key?
     
  6. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Almost YES, except you've no mention in the transposition of adding two sharps to the key signature for the Bb trumpet / cornet from C instrument music. Were you shifting from Bb Tenor trombone music, it would be only up a second to shift an octave from bass into the treble. What you seem to be doing is consolidating the action ... almost ... with no explanation of why. As stated, I've been doing this so long from piano music for trumpet / cornet that I read it directly. I would also do the rise a second plus two sharps from piano music for Bb tenor trombone.

    When I was a beginner during WWII, sheet music was so scarce that we scrounged for pre-owned piano music and did whatever we had to do to make it work for all the band instruments. Today its not like one can walk into a main street music store and peruse full band / orchestral music or solos / duets / quartets / and quintets for brass and certainly not within 100 miles of where I am now. Of course, there is no longer any 95 cent piano sheet music either.

    Well, having once long ago had the requirement in college to tutor a beginner, I'm once again now tutoring 4 beginners and fortunately we work from their Standards of Excellence school issued music books. I ordered my own series over the internet. I hope it won't be necessary to teach them such transposition / octave shifting any time soon and it seems that now I'll either be unable or dead before they'll want to do such. Still, personally I enjoy doing so myself and it works well in church solos from time to time (just transposition and an occasional improv from the tenor line). Try this from C piccolo music to Bb piccolo trumpet to play that part of The Stars and Stripes, Forever! I've done it! Haven't yet played my picc again for more than 3 years, and don't know if I can now.
     
  7. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

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    Ed. You seem to be changing the ground rules with every new post, my friend. I'm not concerned with Bb trombone parts or anything else like that. I'm referring only to a basic concert-pitched bass clef, which we have been referencing from your original post and which is germane to the OP's situation. I haven't mentioned the transposition because I thought that also was understood from your very first post.

    Be that as it may, the OP seems AWOL and I'm not going to spend time on this if he ain't, so I'll politely move along.
    Thanks for the discussion and your patience. Cheers!
     
  8. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Generically, I get the music from any source part and do whatever I have to do to make it playable for the instrument I want to play, and how I want to or another wants to play, even at times where I change the key of the music and tempo to make it easier to sing for a specific vocalist or to play for a beginner. I hope the OP got his/her answer, but often the dialogue also is of interest to other readers. I don't think the technique is unusual as others have done it for years. It is called adaption and one instance that comes to mind is in Kismet where the songs of Borodin are adapted to become popular songs viz Polovetsian Dance becoming Strangers In Paradise. Another wild one is the lead melody of 'Aura Lee of the late 1800s becoming the melody of Love Me Tender in the 1950s. Some can do this almost by instinct, while other plod through it in steps. "Tin Pan Alley" songwriters are reknown to have been prolific at this. One of my favs is Somewhere My Love as becomes Lara's Theme in the production of Doctor Zhivago. Then there are just excerpts such as the finale of the William Tell Overture as not many of my generation have not heard as the Lone Ranger Theme. And it all starts with the concepts of transposing and shifting octaves. One music professor explained to the class I attended, " ... that there is a lot stored in the basement that can be used in the main house."
     
  9. PatMurphy

    PatMurphy Pianissimo User

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    But The Grandaddy of them all tchaikovsky
     
  10. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    ... and a lot of his was adapted to production themes such as Disney's Fantasia. Too, he was one to change clefs from bass to treble still to be played on the bass instruments which is a whoosh for many. I'm still taking it very easy on what I practice on my euphonium and hope I don't encounter such presently. I don't believe I can even now play an eight measure continuous low drone in 4/4 as I once did in my Christmas rendition of We Three Kings of Orient Are. Still, there isn't much out there that can me more classical than T's repertoire. However, I think Rachmaninoff''s were more versatile in ethnics. It is not believed that Edward T. Paull composed anything, but no one disputes that he was a prolific marketer of sheet music that had its day and I like lots of it as was in my Grandmother's and Mother's collections, particularly Charge of the Light Brigade, the first song I tackled after receiving my Schilke P5-4 from my late brother, and it is not a slowpoke. I haven't played that picc in 3 years now as makes me a bit remorseful. Oh well, I'm now doing OK demonstrating to the beginners I'm now tutoring in Book 1 of the Standards in Excellence series, the same book they use in their school instrumental music program.
     

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