Re-lacquer?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Repair and Modification' started by Pseudonym, Jul 1, 2009.

Placement?

  1. Silver, inside of bottom of bell.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  2. Gold, inside of bottom of bell.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. Silver, near the model-name placement.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Gold, near the model-name placement.

    4 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

    7,797
    2,356
    Oct 18, 2007
    The Wide Brown Land
    My view is that getting the silver off is no big deal - you won't have to strip it if the lacquer finish is gloss black - the prepared surface will need to be nicely dent free - that's already been stated, the engraving will 'release' the colour of the brass - gold, and highlights might be added with standard gold top and bottom caps - desired effect, gloriously thought out finish, no change to the equipment (perhaps gold plate the existing mouthpiece?) - great project, I wait with excitement (she's my special invisible friend) and would love to see some photos - before, during, and after if you can manage. :thumbsup:
     
    Pseudonym likes this.
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,948
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    NO, NO, NO! There is no reason to take the silver off. You will not do the horn any favors. If you are going to "paint" it, it doesn't matter what is beneath anyway!

    Engraving will be a problem as the colored laquer will fill it in if it is "spray painted". The only way that I know to have the laquer follow engraving is when it is electrostatically applied. That keeps it thin enough.

    A couple of venues come to mind when looks are at the top of the list. An automobile body shop would for sure do a first rate job, the thickness of the paint may dampen the metal.

    Your other option is to not laquer, rather to plate. Black chrome is available. Here is a link:
    Chrome Plating - National Metal Finishing Co.
    The engraving would show up much better this way.

    The Phaeton was black onyx plated (whatever that is). Phaeton Trumpets

    Felix could probably arrange something for you.
     
    Pseudonym likes this.
  3. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

    1,869
    210
    Oct 16, 2008
    You're kidding, right? You solicit feedback on an internet forum and then you're a jerk about it?

    The link I included was for a new horn, not a used one, and the price is likely less than what you would pay to destroy and then re-apply a finish to your existing horn.

    If you don't want feedback, don't ask for it...
     
    Pseudonym likes this.
  4. Pseudonym

    Pseudonym Pianissimo User

    Age:
    26
    73
    0
    May 23, 2009
    Dallas
    Then it's been decided, NO SILVER IS TO BE TAKEN OFF. I thought it was necessary to do anything with the horn lacquer- or plating-wise how I am very naive when it comes to physical modification of the horn.

    @tedh1951:
    - would the surface need to be completely dent free as if it had just come out of the shop from which it was made? Or would I just need major dents removed, I plan on getting many of the minor wear-and-tear dents out before I proceed either way.

    - I already have my finger-buttons specially ordered and those will be added to my horn in a few days, whenever the damned post gets here! I'll be using Curry MAGNUM heavy-bottomed caps which are silver at the moment already. My mouthpiece is also silver. If I were to get the trumpet engraving in Gold, would I be able to find someone to also coat the accessories in a Gold finish as well?

    - I thought out this design a long time ago, actually. I've always wanted to have my horn stand out, and doing so with a black (my personal very favorite color) would be the desired effect. My school colors are also Black and Gold, so this is also why i have been leaning more towards the Gold spectrum than the Silver. Silver would be cheaper however, and look equally as nice, however either one works for me. When I decide to actually go through with this project (it will probably be in a few months, around December or early next year) I will take the before and after pictures for everyones' enjoyment, as well as my own! I'm not sure what pictures I would be able to take of it "during" the process, but I'll try my best. :)

    @rowuk:
    - I've always thought that the engraving would come after I have finished plating / painting it. What makes you say I should be doing it before?

    - Why do you suggest automobile body shops? In my opinion, they might not take as much detailed care with my instrument as they would with a car in fine-detailing it to my desire. It seems like there is less of an artistic sense in a car shop, than there is in a professional painters'.

    - The Phaeton trumpet looks very sleek, I'll give you that. But will it still shine? It looks as if the black on those trumpets (as opposed to this: http://media.snipesoft.net.nz/image/56ee8216ba0be81be2f032d4472fc5006418BK Trumpet Black in case.jpg) is more "misty" and although I do like that a lot, and the engraving seems to show up rather nicely on the side of the bell there, I'm not sure if I prefer it to a solid black as the attachment shows. I would like my horn to shine still.

    - Another alternative would be to get the Phaeton look, but in a deeper black. Onyx is a very nice color though!

    - Who is Felix? ^^


    Thanks again everyone,
    - Nick
     
  5. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

    7,797
    2,356
    Oct 18, 2007
    The Wide Brown Land
    Nick,

    Black and Gold are my old school colours too :thumbsup:.

    ROWUK has very valid comments (always) - try an auto spray painter as an option (your instrument tech may have some clues as to a good one). If you want it glossy then every defect will show so, yes it would be good to have all the dents removed by a talented technician. You might like to think about having the dents dressed out, painting the horn black, having your engraving done, then finish with a light clear coat to protect the engraving. Yes the lacquer may dull the tone a tiny smidgin, but it probably won't be catastrophic if you explain to the painter what you want, and why a thin coat is important. Yes it is possible to have your caps and MP goldplated (I've had a few MPcs done {trumpet, trombone, and tuba}, expect about $60-80) - I specify 'Food Grade' because the MP is against my mouth and I like to avoid nasty chemicals (Food Grade: The plating used on knives, forks, and spoons for the table). Good luck - I look forward to a positive result (and pictures too).

    Who is Felix? Look up New York Trumpet Company - what a great resource and a sponsor of TM BTW :play:
     
  6. Pseudonym

    Pseudonym Pianissimo User

    Age:
    26
    73
    0
    May 23, 2009
    Dallas
    I've come to a few finalities already with talking it over with a few of my teachers recently. Here they are:

    1) It will be the same finish, or as close to as possible, as the Phaeton Trumpets' design. (http://www.newyorktrumpetcompany.com/phaeblacknickel2.jpg) JUST THE FINISH, not the structural design. I have my heart set on this finish design, does anyone know how I could get this done exactly to my instrument?

    2) My mouthpiece and valve caps will stay Silver, as I'm already going to be adding quite a bit of weight to the horn, I don't need any added with Gold finishes. (This will also save a lot of cost) I'm a Lead player, and any more weight than necessary could adversely affect the way I play.

    3) The engraving will most likely be done by Artistic Engravings, and will also be in Silver. I have come up with two places for engravings to be done, and two phrases as well. The inside bottom of the bell will be the motto I mentioned before, "Congelo, Melior, Ocius, Validus"; the other place will be in a similar spot to where the Phaeton's name is located and will read either "The Black Satin Phoenix" or "Admiral's Horn". Either have intrinsic worth to their placement (if you'd like a description, I'll be happy to elaborate later).

    4) The horn will be "repaired" before any of this is done, and will not be "repaired" until after the Marching band season has ended. My definition of repaired is that all the impurities will be taken out, minor dings - to be professionally cleaned.


    Does anyone have any more advice? What would I have to do after it is engraved? I'm still new to this, so I'll take all the advice I can get. :)

    ed//
    - The reason why I decided on silver is because if I did use gold engraving, I'd have to turn my gear gold as well to keep myself from ripping the horn apart from imperfection, black silver and gold will simply not be allowed all together! :)
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,948
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    A couple of things, laquer (or paint) needs to be intact, otherwise it will flake off when sweat gets behind it. If you "engrave" paint, the surface is no longer intact.

    Second, this is not YOUR thread, and whether you like the direction it takes or not is your problem. The moderators (like me) are here to help keep it clean and of use/amusement to our "members. As was posted, being intolerant will not make your stay here more pleasant.

    I posted the Phaeton as an example of what plating instead of painting could do. There is black chrome, a fairly high gloss, very dark finish as found in professional cameras like Leica and Hasselblad. I make no assumptions about what you do with your money, I was just showing an, in my opinion, good alternative.

    A body shop can be asked for references. The advantage is that they have the tools to do it right and automotive paint is VERY durable, ANY color can be mixed and they are generally available. Like with trumpet players, it is not the gun, rather he who pulls the trigger.

    I do not endorse this type of treatment. Laquer or paint dampen vibrations and that will affect the sound of the horn - probably more than less. Plating on the other hand is thinner, does not dampen and if professionally applied, more durable. Even here, engrave first plate afterwards.
     
  8. DubbaCTrumpetMSU

    DubbaCTrumpetMSU Mezzo Piano User

    550
    3
    Dec 29, 2006
    Ft. Worth, TX
    I just have to say it---the gold plating would not add weight to the horn. Not noticeably anyway. Just like to inform--FWIW, the silver with black looks better anyway. I'd have to agree though--the horn may not be as responsive as it used to be, if it's lacquered/painted...but if it's plated, it would. Interesting stuff though..I'd like to see it once it's done.
     
  9. Pseudonym

    Pseudonym Pianissimo User

    Age:
    26
    73
    0
    May 23, 2009
    Dallas
    It seems that plating would be the best alternative. As there is overwhelming support for it. Rowuk, would there be any chance that I could get the exact same style / color / design of plating done on my trumpet as was done on the Phaeton that was shown?

    Also, if I engrave my horn first, wouldn't the color of the engraving be covered up when I plate the horn? My goal is to have an engraving that is silver showing through the black, as if someone had signed my trumpet. That way, I can put a name or words into the horn.
     
  10. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

    7,797
    2,356
    Oct 18, 2007
    The Wide Brown Land
    Pseudomyn,

    It is certainly possible to mask parts that you don't want plated - masking engraved script would be very very very fiddly though. When I have a MP goldplated, I have the MP masked off so that only the cup and rim are plated the rest remains silver. I don't know if electroplaters can use a wax or something in the engraving to achieve your aims - you might just have to ask.

    If you want to have a finish like the Phaeton, with an engraved Latin expression then masking is obviously the tack to take (if it is available as a process) - but when you engrave a trumpet bell - YOU WILL GET A BRASS COLOUR IN THE ENGRAVING NOT SILVER - 'cause the metal that you are cutting into is brass (the Getzen 700 is silver plated brass - the underlying metal is brass and will be brass coloured when you cut into to it}. I hope it all works for you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009

Share This Page