Rotary trumpet idea

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gordonfurr1, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    DHC and "hot" licks should be no problem with that model. Would I have to wait as long for that as a Monette?? ROFL
     
  2. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Early days yet but I'd think they'll get delivery down to 24 months eventually. Japan is going for them big time presumably to make up for them nukes that got a bit damp.

    I suppose it's comparable with Dr Gonady's Harrelson.
     
  3. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Before I forget again...I want to share an odd idea I awoke with this morning for the JAZZ TRUMPET concept...
    Now, I know it might be a bad idea and at best not for everybody... but this cross my mind...

    What if, instead of having BUTTONS or paddles to activate the rotary valves...you have the option (for use on very fast passages) of having little things like thimbles the player's three fingers stick into, this way, the player's fingers can not only press downward but also LIFT UPWARD...and to make the action lighter and quicker, there would now be NO RETURN SPRING!
    Weird, I know..but similar to the old cycle racing idea of toe clips or locking pedals so that the rider can spin the crank faster..plus can add force in more than just downward direction.
     
  4. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    The Desmodronic or springless valve has been about in IC engines since the early 1900's, Some of the Ducatti motor bikes had them, I think it has been tried on trumpets before, I have gone as far as cutting 3 rings from brass tubing to do just that, they are somewhere at the back of the bench, one of these days........

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  5. gunshowtickets

    gunshowtickets Forte User

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    I think the Ducati still have them, desmosedici was their tradename for the system last time I looked.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    There is something to be said for systems that return to a state of rest automatically. That is why we have springs. Then playing is always "additive". Remove the spring and your fingers don't just move up and down, they have to maintain the neutral state too. This makes us much slower because it adds tension. It is easy enough to experiment with (been there, done that). Remove the spring from the second valve on a piston trumpet. Fashion a ring, or tape the valve to your middle finger. Now just play a scale. Notice something?

    I an working on something that puts the spring on the valve, not the linkage. At the same time, I am moving the bumper to the keys and away from the valve. Why? Well, the bumpers on the valve means that the linkage takes the hit on every actuation. Piano/harpsichord linkage have the bumper on the key itself......
    As far as putting the spring on the valve, this puts the energy closer to where we need it. That means we have no loss of recoil due to the linkage. I also want adjustable spring tension for each valve.

    The buttons in my opinion should be ergonomically poositioned like the Selmer Radial 2 degrees instrument. Our fingers do not push straight down naturally and with rotary valves we have a great opportunity to fix this without the engineering difficulties of piston valves. This would be a great modification for almost any rotary instrument -even with traditional linkage.

    Another "issue" will be a practical case that would protect the hanging valve slides. On a flugel, with the bell bow, there is protection. Rotary valves have very tight tolerances. Without the right case, you have almost instant hanging 3rd valve.
     
  7. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    I like the idea of the spring on the valve, I would extend the rear journal through the bearing plate and replace the cover with a chamber containing a torsion or clock spring. I have a picture in my head of a rack and pinion system for actuating, I am sure it has been tried before, most things have. Search Patents for some really wild designs.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Rack and pinion has been tried. It was too sensitive to dirt. Conical gears have also been tried, same issue (I used some in Delrin from a model car rear axle). The current popular Unibal linkage has withstood the test of time. Parts are easy to come by. They are fast and dependable. My picc valves come from L├Ątzsch and have ball bearings at the top and bottom as well as carbon fiber valves in a gold brass casing. They are impervious to temperature and oxidation. It took two years of experimentation to find reliable ball bearings for this UseCase (only quarter turn, low speed).

    If we don't need the bumpers on top of the valve, a clockspring at that position would require less reengineering as well as providing tension for the linkage and valve at the point where they meet. That should keep wear minimized.

     
  9. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Brilliant thinking. Thank you for sharing.
     
  10. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    On an industry-wide basis it is preferable to have a standard design concept through the range of instruments:
    Trumpet/Flugel rotors
    Bb/F trombone rotors
    French Horn rotors
    Baritone/Euph/Tuba rotors

    The linkages used currently include
    Gimbal (at one or both ends) - this is the traditional linkage
    Minibal (at one or both ends)
    String
    Articulated string

    So we should be thinking rotary, rather than just trumpet.

    Putting the spring on the valve would have the advantage of applying the force where it is needed, and would also create a positive default position. However there is a secondary advantage to the spring being on the lever - it deals with the free play in the linkage by tensioning the linkage and not allowing it to vibrate. Yes I know this is not such an issue with minibals, but I have known these joints to buzz.

    Having the bumpers at the rotor rather than at the lever is a good idea because it stops the action where it is needed - no matter what the spring tension may be telling the valve to do. Yes, these bumpers are awkward to adjust for alignment, but other than that are pretty reliable.

    Installing adjustments for spring tension has the potential for introducing more sympathetically vibrating elements - buzzing
     

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