Rotary trumpet idea

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gordonfurr1, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    On at least two previous occasions I've posted links (one in response to "Captain Kirk" on the 'other board') to articles about the grain structure of electro-deposited copper. In short, electroformed copper has a very small grain size -- a characteristic of hard metals. Now, bending the bow (the U-turn) in a trumpet bell involves repeatedly annealing the metal -- creating large grain size and soft metal. And the heating involved in rolling around a wire and soldering a bell rim will also effect the small grain structure. So it's debatable whether Conn Coprion bells took complete advantage of the unique grain structure of the copper. But simply trimming the copper off at a set diameter won't heat the copper enough to soften it.

    I own a Conn cornet that Michael Del Quadro modified with a beadless copper bell, so I have some "owner's experience" with beadless copper bells from different sources. The bells on both the NYTC trumpet and the Del Quadro cornet were plenty hard, and neither seemed more fragile than a brass bell with a bead. I also own a Calicchio flugelhorn with a solid copper bell which was formed traditionally from copper sheet, and that bell is thick, heavy, and soft. I have to assume the thickness is in some degree to compensate for the softness, but the flugel bell has picked up dings much more easily then either electroformed bell.

    While I have no reservations about the strength of these bells, I do think taking full advantage of them involves experimentation and prototyping. The Magnum trumpet had no doubt gone through many iterations and design refinements to result in a horn that I really could have played to this day -- nobody ever said to me, "Dude, that trumpet just doesn't work for lead playing. Get something else or find a new band!" I simply found that *I* wanted something different, and a different trumpet that happened to have a bell with a bead delivered an indefinable difference I preferred. The Del Quadro-modified cornet is a unique beast that reveals its one-off roots: It plays great, I love playing it, but it only works in certain settings. It projects more like a flugelhorn -- the sound is diffuse and seems to project as much back as forward -- though it doesn't sound like a flugel. I really enjoy playing it in small venues, playing small-group jazz.
     
  2. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    In this case on this particular project I was thinking that the bell only (and immediate stem, but not the bow...nothing past the last bell bracing point) would be the alternate material...reason is I want the bell to be easily replaceable with different materials...brass, copper, carbon fiber, even crystal glass. That way, along with easily changeable leadpipe tapers (concealed in the outer housing) MANY different configurations and results may be had...making the instrument more easily tailorable and changeable than most instruments.

    Since the bell section could be even CNC machined out of a block of material, nearly ANYTHING could be built and tried. George is very open-minded, and since this is such new territory, adjustability and adaptability are good features when lacking the benefit of decades of refinement.

    I am VERY glad to hear that the copper bell, even if rimless, can be reasonably sturdy, provided the grain is kept small. Since we would NOT be bending it necessarily, we have that option.

    I would LOVE to see this trumpet, after trying various materials and details, end up with a predictable package for a suitable variety of venues...Bright...Medium...Dark...whatever. The kit could come with maybe a choice of two or three bells and one or two leadpipes...in addition to specialty mouthpieces...also other options such as NO TRIGGERS, ONE TRIGGER, or TWO TRIGGERS...with or without spit valves...and the basic design would be practical for both left-handed or right-handed one or two-hand playing...One of the issues I endure...an MS ravaged right hand, led to some aspects of this design, as some days my right hand works moderately well, and other days not at all...and some times even stops working after I yawn! Having the ability to EASILY switch and play comfortably from either side is a tremendous benefit to me, maybe to others...and is something that MOST designs do not accommodate. This one DOES.

    Well, after talking about it let me show you a recent (and later than you've seen) here-to-fore TOP SECRET sketch of the SCHLUB SUPER NUOVO...and let's hear banter.
    Thanks, Gordon

    BTW...all bracing will be by George as he builds the instrument, so as to determine the best locations and methods to brace. Any bracing shown here will be considered very preliminary and subject to revision. Heck EVERYTHING is subject to revision...and I just realized I shaded the offset knuckle on the bell tube incorrectly. Oh well. There will be a hundred more revisions.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Did you catch that...a one-piece CNC machined glass crystal bell...? I figure it will be very dark-sounding...but being machined from a single block should be improved from the Cashel crystal glass bell that was made by several pieces fused together.

    If a brass bell is built, it, too, could be formed in the traditional method, or machined from billet to exactly the thickness, bead design, shape desired. Should lend a lot of adjustability to the instrument.

    Since the bell tube has that old horseback "curve" designed into it, machining the bell from one piece beyond the last bell brace would be impractical...not that we will preclude building a fixed continuous bell...or a single-piece tuneable bell.

    This trumpet will be, by intent, HIGHLY modular...even though a custom horn.
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know about banter...... In any case, there are a couple of things that don't line up with my experience. This is what I tried but didn't like:

    Detachable bell flare: it seemed to suck the life out of the sound. Like adding a weight at that position or heavy bracing, the feedback to my ears was dramatically reduced, gave the impression that the horn was not as easy to play. In this respect, the Ganschhorn that has relatively light bracing on the "one piece" bell really lights up.

    This horn with the leadpipe sleeve and bell arrangement seems to point more towards the "heavy trumpet" camp. That is not bad, but certainly is something to think about. Less feedback is often construed as stuffy.

    I would not "calculate" the spit key position. I would wait until the horn is built, see how to hold it and what angle is natural, then decide where the optimum position is.

    The 1st and 3rd slide linkage in that location is a good idea. I gave thought to this a couple of years ago and am not sure if above below is better than next to each other (like a trombone). I'd have to try it to see if when I used the lower one or both, whether the playing angle changes.
     
  5. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Bell joint...you are probably right and I was worried about that...but maybe the knuckle could be minimized.
    My experience with French horns is that the ring set at the bell flare wasn't noticeable...but that was a horn and this is a trumpet. The horn bell actually turns a good part of the way towards the player, so that it is not uncommon for hornists to experience hearing loss in their right ear. I know of one hornist that even switched to a left-handed horn because of it.
    Now, that bell ring might only need to be done on models having the crystal glass bell since it will be machined from a block. On other examples that are formed from sheet, it could be done in a normal fashion. One other thought on the matter..if a VERY light fusion of the bell and the bell tube could be formed, then how much different might that be from the soldered joint commonly there in a normal brass sheet bell?

    Spit key...you are very right...I drew them at the bottom when the horn was held horizontally, but the horn would almost never be held that way...(hence the upkick in the bell) so..yes. I should revise the drawing for the typical scenario where the horn might be held downward at what..a ten to fifteen degree angle? It would of course be easy to custom install (if any spit valves were needed.especially if one foregoes the slide levers..without the slide levers the slides could really just be dumped like in a French horn). Thanks for pointing that out!

    The leadpipe would be slipped into a connector right at the main slide end..and other than the receiver would not be touching anywhere else. There would be no bracing or hand contact on the span of the leadpipe. That is one thing that really jumped out to me the very first time I played a Vocabell...and I did not know the hidden aspect of that design...I loved the feeling of that leadpipe design, without really understanding what was going on. I thought it was mass...yielding efficiency through less absorption of energy...but no, it was the freedom of the leadpipe from the dampening effects of touch and constraint that was more likely at play. I wanted to incorporate the same element. George happens to have a very simple and elegant replaceable leadpipe design that can be put right into this, and that is what I would hope to do. That way, a person would have some easy choices in leadpipe selection, without forever being locked into a decision.

    I am thinking of asking George to install just such a double-lever trigger on a flugelhorn that needs adjustment on both the first and third valves beyond what is comfortable to lip...a good chance to try it out. Besides, I have worked my fingers and hand hours visualizing what it would feel like, and I think, at least for MY hand and neural wiring, it would be VERY natural and well-balanced..or at least I hope. If nothing else, it sure looks really cool..and can be made VERY light, especially with all the lightening reliefs drilled into it...not to mention being made from extremely lightweight Unobtanium...Un238.

    Thanks for the kind and helpful input. You COULD very well exercise complete creative control over your very own version of it through George...and we would appreciate your feedback. I would love to see George get a rash of several hundred orders and be able to set up a nice little manufacturing process (and need to get an apprentice!) to cover the build. It would be a more profitable use of his available time and allow him to purchase more equipment, etc.
    You could have serial number TWO. I would guess he's going to keep serial number ONE.
     
  6. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    The beadless bell concept may change the feedback equation. In the case of the Getzen Genesis, even a lightweight bell (with traditional bell-wire and rim) balances the sleeved leadpipe and plate bracing. The main thing is, you and George have drawn a prototype. If you hope to have a versatile instrument when all is said and done, heed George's input and accept that it may take multiple iterations. And you may not be able to accommodate every bell material, weight, and bead concept.
     
  7. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    I know it's true.
     
  8. Culbe

    Culbe Forte User

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    A glass bell? Don't play too high! And wear safty glasses for anything over high c, please.
     
  9. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Only one of many possible paths to a demise...but what a story it would make! The GLASS GRENADE.
     
  10. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    GOT to admit, at least it is interesting watching and engaging in the development of a totally new trumpet design...and you not only have a front seat to it, but you are involved and an influence in the process!

    I'd bet we can talk George into a video of the build, and of tests and trials of alternate materials if we earnestly asked....
    It would be VERY interesting to watch him trying out different brace locations and designs...checking out their effect on harmonics...watching his gears turn...

    This has been and I'm sure will continue to be a fascinating journey...started with a posting of a simple idea that inspired a creative builder's juices. Man...THIS is FUN!
     

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