Rotary trumpet idea

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gordonfurr1, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Instead of spinning a bell, you could stamp it on a non-symmetrical mandrel with multiple bell flares built in. Such a bell would make for some interesting mute designs though.
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The C4 "plops" out.............

     
  3. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Sketch?
    I'm not 100 percent sure my conjured cogitation matches your intended proviso. .
    Are you talking about annular edges...sharp changes in bore that a reversion could..uh...'reflect" from? Like fluting but turned 90 degrees?
    I've wondered about annular rings.
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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  5. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    THOSE are some serious audiophile speakers.
    The pictures were not terribly explanatory, but you seem to be suggesting something akin to Monette's flat bell rim, but at different points inward from the rim giving different and broadening rates of flare. I see. I see. I was thinking further in...going all the way back to the bell bow...sort of like a Pilkzic leadpipe in reverse and at the opposite end of the instrument.
    Hmmm...I wonder how scientific I'd have to be or how lucky to stumble on a design that clearly excels....
     
  6. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The rollover on the outside of the bell "loads" the amplification at the lower frequencies, giving the horn a thicker sound without making the upper register more difficult to play. Just a bigger bell would be harder to play.

    How long it would take to get "success" depends more on what you call success. Is Monette successful? "Most" symphony or jazz players don't use his equipment, but his production schedule is full for the next 2 years and has been that way for a long time. The problem with custom instruments is that that they do not have the broad base of use cases behind them. If the horn is very "special", it will not appeal to a broad cross section of players. This means to me that success is based on goals reached, not necessarily the amount of people that the horn appeals to.

    This exercise has been more a study in community design rather than declaring a sonic goal and working backwards to reach it. Monettes' goal for instance is the sound and the trumpet design first and foremost promoted Dave Monettes concept of what a trumpet should sound like. Monette does not build custom trumpets according to the customer specification, you buy into HIS view.

    That all being said, just about any geometry can be manipulated so that a trumpet is playable. A different bell shape can be tried, but the question is why. An asymmetrical trumpet bell is much more difficult to manufacture. The goal of an audiophile horn is different than with a trumpet. On a trumpet, how the bell is formed, tension and temper of the metal are all significant. To develop an asymmetrical bell is a really BIG deal. To make it resonant over a wide range of notes, adjust the gain and efficiency to the other parameters in the horn require enormous efforts without really promising something significant except looking cool. A horn is basically an equalizer. Standard horn shapes like trumpet bells have a sharp cut off in response at lower frequencies. That means in an audiophile horn that we have a big horn and a not very low frequency that we can crossover to without a honking sound. That honk is exaclty what makes it interesting for a trumpet. The asymmetrical bell softens that lower cutoff, making the horn crossover possible at a lower frequency and softening the honk. Whether that would help or screw trumpet stuff up, I can only guess. The large bell Monettes do not continue the flare, they terminate flat. That increases output at lower frequencies without reducing efficiency for higher notes.

    The problem is that there are very few people out there that can predict anything, very few that have had opportunities to experiment with leadpipes, bells and valve blocks.
     
  8. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    You could drop a line to Thomas Inderbinen....

    [​IMG]
     
  9. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Good info.

    Experimenting...

    I hope with this trumpet to see a number of pieces tried on it...various bell designs/materials/leadpipes.

    One thing I was thinking was that with the replaceable bell segment (not extending past the bellmost brace so as to be CNC machined) would allow a number of options to be built relatively economically (relatively is a key word...it would still be expensive) compared to building complete bell tube assemblies of various materials, making the bell tunable, or easily replaceable...image a CLARINET BELL SEGMENT....but about twice that size...but removable like a clarinet bell. Yes, I know a clarinet bell is a totally different acoustic animal, but I refer to it simply for the removable aspect and general proportion.

    So, I know that using alternate materials, flares, masses only on the immediate bell section is a distinct compromise, but it seems to me to be a logical point to rest given the scope of this project, and meets the greatest number of desires with the least consumption of precious resources. Besides, breaking the bell tube at the bell brace beckons as there will be a natural effect at that point anyway, and part of the mass involved in faring the brace to the bell offsets some of the additional mass for a complete joining ring at that point.

    A prospective buyer could sit down with the affable George and a veritable array of parts set before him/her...leadpipe and bell segments and mouthpieces...maybe even slide and weight choices..

    Trying out each possible combination, a "palette" can be built and tailored to that player's needs and desires VERY EASILY.
    WITH EASILY REMOVABLE BELL SEGMENTS AND LEADPIPES...IT BECOMES REASONABLY EXPEDIENT TO BUILD THE CUSTOMER'S INSTRUMENT TO CUSTOMER'S SPEC...PROVIDES A QUICK BASELINE AND CHOICE MATRIX RESULT, AND ALLOWS THE POSSIBILITY OF TRUE MODULAR INSTRUMENT DESIGN TO MEET MORE THAN ONE NEED/VENUE WITH ONE INSTRUMENT. IN THE CUSTOMER'S CARRYING CASE COULD SIT THE PARTS TO CHANGE THE HORN FROM BRIGHT TO DARK, RINGING TO SULTRY, PIERCING TO BROAD...ALL TAKING NO MORE SPACE THAN AN ASSORTMENT OF MUTES AND ACCESSORIES...(forgive the capitalization...I would italicize if I easily could instead).

    Similarly, a remote customer unable to travel to Singapore to do a hands-on session would still be able to view and listen to each possibly logical arrangement of pieces (by video)...develop an idea that suits THEM...and then consult with George for confirmation. I understand buying into Monette' s idea...but the important thing is NOT for the customer to buy into the builder's dream...but the builder to empower the customer's dream...and this modularity enables that possibility about as expediently as I can imagine with the least developmental dollars.

    Community design..

    Yes, I really put myself "out there" for public consumption...and it has its price sometimes. But, I am not so vain as to think I'm smart enough to know everything I need to know. Have I EVER designed a trumpet before? Designed lots of things, but never a trumpet. NO. I know very little, but have an uninhibited imagination, and am willing to break traditions to break paradigms...and not just break them for chaos' sake but to get past the current horizon.

    I would not call this something as pedestrian as "community design" as I and George are still going to persue the vision we have...but...it behooves at least me to build a knowledge base from which to pick tools towards the end...the end being a "programmable" modular trumpet, that not only can expediently be tailored to a function, but has a distinctive appearance and feel...

    THE METRIC FOR SUCCESS...

    I like your comments on what constitutes success in this project.
    For me, there is not just one metric. There are many.

    Firstly...getting a concept out of my mind and into a presentable form for discussion.
    Satisfaction and success.

    Secondly, sharing ideas...the thrill of discovery...
    Success.

    Thirdly, the satisfaction in seeing a fleeting thought converted into metal (or glass, or CF...or whatever)
    Hopefully successful soon.

    Finding ONE PERSON who's needs and dream fulfilled in this instrument?
    Absolute TOTAL success.

    So...there's my metric(s).

    And, to be entirely blunt...advertisement. What better marketing tactic than to engage many of the potential target customers in the discussion leading up to the product? I can't think of too many options short of a dedicated PR program. This is free advertising.

    THAT is hard to beat...and besides, we all wish we could sit in the corner of that R&D department that late night where critical brainstorming takes place, but never have the opportunity. THIS is that opportunity. Grab your coffee, chime in. Watch it develop. Something interesting IS going to happen.
     
  10. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    I would almost be able to hide behind that bell.
     

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