Rotary trumpet idea

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gordonfurr1, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

    2,107
    1,091
    Aug 2, 2010
    North Carolina
    Yes, the second valve IS rotated 90 degrees regarding open valve path of travel relative to the other two...that allows the unique architecture shown...the "SWOOP". George's valve supplier will be tested mightily in interpreting correctly the register orientation and knuckle directions for this set...and keep in mind the second valve variance so that he doesn't doesn't this trick when done soldering and finds the thing awry. Very sharp of you to notice that detail. Scherzer's is more convenient...and straightforward. Mine, well in vintage British road-race car hot cam design parlance....'DIABOLICAL'. Just diabolical. And, I kind of like it spicy like that.

    I know there are a number of trumpet designs that touted "a straight-through air passage design when the valves are open" concept...I had several, one being the Buescher 205, others being the Olds Superstar...but when I think about it, yes, it is a straighter, cleaner passage when all the valves are OPEN..but when any one or more are NOT in the open position then you are back to convolution, but now there will be MORE CONTRAST built into the sound of your horn relative to the "open" or depressed valve positions, and I think THAT would be unfortunate...so...yes, there is NOT a "straight-through" shot in this and as long as some weird harmonic effect is not triggered it doesn't bother me at all.
     
  2. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

    2,107
    1,091
    Aug 2, 2010
    North Carolina
    After sitting here looking at my interference problem between the main tuning slide and the third tuning slide and the bell, I might need to reconsider the rotated orientation of the first and third valves relative to the second. Don't know yet...but thinking. I also notice that Scherzer's valve knuckles are very flat as the go from one valve to the next. Yes, there is some small bit of drop, but not much. Much to consider. Much to consider.
     
  3. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

    3,185
    976
    Mar 21, 2006
    Toronto

    You are correct. I am not against doing new things, or this project. I just can see holding this horn to be very uncomfortable because it seems like your hands will have to be in a closed position rather than the more open position that normal trumpets have.


    (Ps Rowuk, I have now built two of my own horns, and will have another 4 done by New Years I hope ;) )
     
  4. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

    2,107
    1,091
    Aug 2, 2010
    North Carolina
    Brek, It should be very comfortable as the handhold is not around the instrument or valve cluster but rather into the rings. The index finger and third finger provide a natural anchor to push against for reference. The hand will not be at all in a closed position, but rather in the most comfortable and natural relaxed position. I drew my own hand with it in the most relaxed position, that is what you see rendered. I have big palms but short fingers. The thumb ring (which is deep and ergonomically rounded to spread load comfortably) is the main anchor and is also adjustable regarding location. The middle finger controls the third slide.


    I would love to see your instruments!


    [​IMG]






    ‚Äč
     
  5. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Age:
    68
    3,015
    3,583
    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    Been watching this for a while and am concerned about the premature analysis based on imagined situations. There is, as yet, no computer model to predict the behavior of any trumpet design. This would suggest that not enough is known about design details.

    Let the proof be in the pudding. Let's build an instrument and gain some empirical knowledge. That is the Jaeger Philosophy.:soap:
     
  6. gunshowtickets

    gunshowtickets Forte User

    1,243
    781
    Mar 11, 2015
    Tidewater, VA
    Now THAT'S the attitude i'm talking about!
     
  7. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

    2,107
    1,091
    Aug 2, 2010
    North Carolina


    I LOVE pudding!

    Yes, the only thing we can do (currently) is to do the very best we can with our limited knowledge, and then fine-tune the device after it is in the flesh...(well, copper or brass). Braces, masses, design details....all will requirement adjustment to optimize. After all, how many years has the current design been tinkered with? (and that is no reason to stop tinkering)...TWO things CAN be reasonably well-planned from the drawing board...

    ONE: Ergonomics... and that has been an on-going process to develop with this challenging shape...but I see no reason that it cannot be superior with creativity.
    TWO: Design appeal. A new form SHOULD offer interesting aesthetics. Why not? Performers like to stand out from the crowd, not only in superior ability but also stylistically. Differentiating oneself from a thousand other also competent performers is terrifically valuable...not to mention just fun.


    Ivan, are the holes the way I rendered them about the way you thought to increase player feedback? If so, I don't see why there would be any issue with using a mute. I'm curious what it would be like to play the same horn without and then with the bell holes. I have a drill and I have a student trumpet...hmmm...there will be brass drilled tonight.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,955
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    I would not place much value on baseless descriptions of how horns work. There is no "advantage" to straight through. Trumpets work and are in tune and easy to play because of the imperfections in the bore, balance of mass and geometry.

    At the end of the day we only have three factors: the AC (alternating current) side which is the sound producing one based on the standing wave in the trumpet. Straight through or corners are essentially irrelevant. The second factor is the feedback of the AC (sound) to the player. Here mass, bracing and knuckles come into serious play. The last factor is DC (direct current). This determines how your air gets used up. We need to move enough air that we don't suffocate, but not so much that we cannot phrase.

    The first and third factors can be easily manipulated by the artisan, the second one is hard to predict. Not enough feedback would be my major concern on any tightly wrapped instrument - especially one with lots of bends. Surely not impossible, but a concern. Through my experience working with German artisans, brace positioning needs to be accurate to half a millimeter to get the desired response. I worked for almost a year getting only the braces on a picc design optimized. My C trumpet took 6 months.

     
  9. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    60
    12,459
    7,035
    Mar 23, 2006
    Parts Unknown
    A trumpet with its own prosthetic hand? Why not prosthetic lips? (Tee-hee)

    Trivia: The Scherzer Bb/A piccolo was East Germany's clone of the Selmer.
     
  10. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

    2,107
    1,091
    Aug 2, 2010
    North Carolina
    I could certainly use a prosthetic right hand as mine now barely works, seriously limiting both my ability to play and the enjoyment thereof.
    Having a trumpet such as this would allow an easy access to ever hand happens to be working best at any given moment...important o me and perhaps a few others. I scarcely play nowadays just because it is so frustrating. I can still THINK...though even that is somewhat hampered by the profusion of MS lesions in my grey matter.
    BTW, I need to revise my "hand" as in use the wrist would be coming upward from about five o'clock from below...instead of horizontally at three o'clock. Nonetheless, the hand naturally flexes that way so it remains ergonomic.

    Wouldn't it be interesting (for us digitally challenged folks) to have a trumpet essentially HAVING digital fingering input via pc controlled (or I phone app) solenoids. ..?
    We could still hold it, supply the air, supply the lip buzzing input...everything but the fingering...I know it's not ideal, but if one had paralyzed hands that soul could still otherwise be challenged and play. Perhaps a variable tempo control so one could start out slowly and gradually increase the tempo.
    Ah...another half-baked challenge.
     

Share This Page