Schilke Water Key Cork

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by seilogramp, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Thanks so much! I'm so happy that you in your 16 or so years on this planet and 5-6 years of experience on the horn have taken the time to set us all straight on that.

    What does it really matter if the neoprene absorbs more water or not? The important thing is whether or not it's achieving a positive seal.

    They definitely are very, very well made. If I had the money, I'd probably still be on a Schilke (S32 or S42) rather than a Jupiter, but it would have taken almost twice what I paid for my Jupiter to get into one of the aforementioned Schilkes.
     
  2. seilogramp

    seilogramp Piano User

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    Positive seal will not happen with a normal water key cork. Circled image shows specific port which the nipple enters when shut. This provides less disruption of air flow.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Dude, I get it - I really do. Believe me, you haven't enlightened me to that little detail. However, the question then becomes one of whether or not it makes a hill of beans worth of difference to the net result of how it plays and blows. (Aside from that, you will get a positive seal with a regular cork - you don't need the nipple on it for that to happen.)

    I know Renold Schilke had reasons for why he did what he did, but remember, as the lore goes, his tolerances were so tight when it came to fitting of the valves, that the folks doing the valves on the new horns actually had to relax on those tolerances a bit because even the amount of pressure from one's hand on the valve casing would cause them to start to bind.
     
  4. seilogramp

    seilogramp Piano User

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    Probably not, but in my mind and the spirit of Renold, it does. So I guess I don't need a special water key cork, but maybe a therapist.:bash:
     
  5. MusicianOfTheNight

    MusicianOfTheNight Pianissimo User

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    I was just saying that if the OP cannot find replacement corks, he could make his own. You do not need any experience in trumpet to know how to whittle stuff.

    I have neoprene corks on my trumpet's water key, and whenever I touch it, I get water all over my fingers. It acts like a sponge. Cork however does not do that very often. That is why I prefer cork over neoprene.
     
  6. seilogramp

    seilogramp Piano User

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    Yes, I appreciate the suggestion. :-) However, I did locate the corks on eBay. They should be arriving shortly.
     
  7. MusicianOfTheNight

    MusicianOfTheNight Pianissimo User

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    I was looking through that Schilke Loyalist website when I found this:

    "We normally find three interruptions along this section of tubing. Two occur at the sudden change in diameter caused by the tuning slide. The third is caused by the aperture to the waterkey.

    The waterkey in itself is a relatively minor problem, and can be designed out either by using the cylindrical type 'Amado' waterkey; by using a studded waterkey with a nipple on the rubber which fits flush with the inside of the tubing when closed; or more simply by having no waterkey at all and emptying the instrument by inversion, as on the french horn.

    It might appear that such a small change in the diameter of the inside tubing, as caused by the extension of the tuning slide, should have no noticeable effect. This is a fallacy. Intonational distortion is caused by the fact that various notes of the differing harmonic series tend to 'focus' at different points along the length of this critical section of tubing. The resultant effect can best be likened to the turbulence in a water pipe at any point where the diameter might change."
     
  8. seilogramp

    seilogramp Piano User

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    Yes, I read that too. Thanks for posting.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    It is very easy to create a story that keeps getting repeated - regardless of truth.

    First of all, air is moving slowly through the horn - too slow for turbulence to be an issue. You can calculate how fast it moves by measuring the size of your deep breath and the time it takes to get used up when playing longtones.

    If there were major turbulence at the water key, a lot of gunk would also collect there.

    The standing wave in the trumpet is another issue. It changes with the note played and you can see what notes are affected by opening the key while playing. Most are surprised that for most notes in the stave there is NO DIFFERENCE between open and closed.

    I would say, if you are worried, change to Saturn or Amado. Then it is truely a non issue (except for the additional weight of the valve). The nipple makes much less difference than even a fine players daily variance in chops. A much bigger issue is the tension of the water key spring. Do NOT use higher tension springs. They can make the horn blow VERY stiffly.
     
  10. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    When was the last time you tried to whittle cork, and particularly a piece of cork as small as a water key cork? I mean, how much experience with tools and making things do you have? When was the last time you built or fabricated something? You could be an amateur machinist for all I know, but I'm laying odds that you aren't.

    Typically, when fitting a cork for a water key, you do it by sanding it with fine sandpaper - not whittling. That's my actual experience talking - not some theory I have about whether or not one should whittle or sand based on something I read somewhere or some idea that I pulled out of my head at random.

    I've been through the Schilke Loyalist site many, many times, the first of which likely occurred when you were in either kindergarten or first grade - probably younger - I read through the site several times before I got my first Schilke in 2005, (the horn I got paid to gig on for a full decade before moving to a Jupiter 1600i Roger Ingram last summer) and it was partially why I took the plunge and bought one.

    Keep in mind that Renold was looking to correct every conceivable flaw in trumpet design as he perceived them to be. The effect it has overall - nipple or no nipple on the water key cork - likely cannot be perceived by the average player.
     

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