Short Stroke Valves

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by trumpetup, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    Dec 22, 2008
  2. study888

    study888 Mezzo Forte User

    Aug 22, 2005
    Darlington S.C.
    Hello,the valve stroke on my 1938/1948 Model #2 1065 King Master Cornets. Appear to be and feel like a short or shorter stroke valve action. Compared to the longer valve action stroke on my 1055T King Silver Flair Trumpet.

    The 1938 King Master Cornet valve stroke, is a tad shorter than the 1948 model. But the upper top valve caps are a little differant design. But not much. Valves will interchange,between the two.

    I had a Holton T-104 Symphony Trumpet. That had a extra long valve stem and long stroke. Being the Holton T-101-104 series Trumpets were Bach clones. I assume the Bach Strads have the same long stroke type valve stems etc.

    The 1948 King H.N. White S1 model Super 20,I once owned,had the shorter stroke valve action.

    The 1952-53 all Brass, Olds Special did have a truly short stroke valve action. Not sure what other Olds Trumpet/Cornet models of that Era had that short stroke valve action.

    Was a very neat feel and playing faster runs was made easier on this Olds Special. Was just getting back into the horn game, sold it to try and buy some so called better more modern horns. Was in great shape and payed only $40.00 for it in a old pawn shop est.
  3. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    Thanks Veery, you are quite correct in what you say (no surprises there!).

    But my understanding of the Wedgewood concept is that the knuckle tubing itself has an oval/elliptical cross-section to make it "squashed" through the valve.

    Can anybody else comment on this?
  4. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Ithaca NY
  5. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    Thanks Veery - I read the website wrong.:oops:

    This whole concept looks very good - shorter stroke, larger casings for more comfortable holding.

    I wonder if a Wedgewood style casing could be machined from a solid block of brass, machined away where possible for lightness.... This would solve a lot of assembly problems.
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    The valve ports can be square. The resistance is really no issue as the air is not moving very fast. The resonant frequency of cylindrical tubing is based on its length. Irregular shapes resonate based on volume - blowing across the tops of various shaped beer bottles demontrates this very well.

    The primary difference in valves has been purely mechanical for me. I have small, medium and large bore instruments, rotary and piston valves of all geometries. The most important part has been the reliability of them on stage. A killer concept really does not translate to a better horn.

    Here is some interesting stuff out of my stack of stuff:
    Early Valve Designs
    Videos Posted by David Monette Trumpets: NEW DESIGN PISTON LINERS! [HQ] | Facebook
    HAMANAGA Valve System | BEST BRASS
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  7. BookTrumpeter

    BookTrumpeter New Friend

    May 23, 2016
    Beijing, China
    I have just got a Phaeton PHTP-3030 Pocket Trumpet. It is said that it has an exclusive short stroke feature. I roughly compared it with Bach 18037, I think it is not a real short stroke feature, but has a short stroke action recessing into the valve cap.
  8. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    It is a common optical illusion to do this.

    The valve has to travel at least the bore size for the open port to move away from the casing port, then it also has to move the distance between the ports which is determined by the wall thickness of the port tubing (twice), plus a bit of safety spacing.
    So the stroke must be at least 0.460"+0.020"+0.020"+ a little bit to allow for the internal plumbing of the other ports. This adds up to 0.500" plus some. Trumpets typically have a stroke of 0.630" (16mm) or so. To get much less than that you would have to make the tubing oval, rather than round; which is something that Conn did on some Baritone Horns and Tubas way back in the past.
  9. barliman2001

    barliman2001 Fortissimo User

    Jul 5, 2010
    Vienna, Austria, Europe
    Amazing how a seven year old zombie thread suddenly gets a new lease of life...
  10. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria
    It seems to me that only real difference can be between rotary and piston. The ovoid thing maybe makes a difference, but I wouldn't expect too much of a difference.

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