single tongue

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by anthony, May 25, 2009.

  1. anthony

    anthony Mezzo Piano User

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    Hi I am a comeback player I have been playing about 4 months now and started taking lessons with a good trumpet teacher ,I am doing ok the only thing so far....... is Iam having trouble with single tongung EVEN SPELLING IT IS A PROBLEM HA :lol: BUT SERIOUSLY ,does anyone have any advice for me thank you ,Anthony:play:
     
  2. poetofsound

    poetofsound Pianissimo User

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    PM me and I'll send some exercises for that your way.
     
  3. rbdeli

    rbdeli Mezzo Piano User

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    One thing that helped me was to recognize that you keep the air flowing along with your tongue. Don't let the air stop your tongue and vice versa.
    Don't cut the air off with your tongue. Keep the air flowing.

    Secondly,
    Don't stick your tongue out too far. Just tap your tongue off the roof of your mouth. Some players use the mid-section of the tongue and tap it just behind the front teeth. That's okay too - whatever works best for you.
     
  4. poetofsound

    poetofsound Pianissimo User

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    I second this.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The key to proper tonguing is being able to produce a clean sound without the tongue at all. Once that works, we add only enough tongue to divide the sound up.

    I disagree with NOT stopping the air. That is what articulation means. If the chops respond, we are free to do many things. Weak articulation caused by NOT interrupting the flow ends up sounding VERY wishy washy to the audience.

    A positive TOOH is the best start. Comprimises early on are not good for development.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  6. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    The tongue doesn't attack the note it releases the air [note], I tell my students to think of their tongue as a snake striking and then quickly returning to it's starting position. This works best if you don't try to play too loud at the beginning.
     
  7. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    Robin can you speak a little more to this .... expressions like; tip of the tongue to top of the teeth spring to mind, but ringing loudly in my ears is an entreaty from my first trumpet tutor telling me,
    "You will NEVER hear of anyone telling you to 'toot', they will say 'too', 'tah', 'teh' etc - no hard consonants at the end of the expression."

    I took that to mean that the tongue didn't stop the air, rather not blowing stopped the airflow, and the tongue just acted as a momentary "interruption" to the airflow ?????? Help, please? :dontknow:
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Ted,
    I came to Europe in the 70s after getting my music degree and some Army Band stuff. The first thing that I had to "relearn" was that the American obsession with sound ├╝ber alles and the focus only on getting the sound started and then keeping the air flowing, was VERY out of place and actually limited the expressive possibilities.

    If we examine other instruments like a piano, we have pedals to control the ending of a note. String players have the damping value of their fingers and bows to control the sound, a harpsichord has stops to damp the strings, bass drummers and tympani players damp the resonance with their hands. European wind players articulate much differently.

    In any case, I wanted it all and discovered that a real secco stacatto can only be produced with a toot. And that all of the BS that I was fed in college about keeping the air flowing was a myth. If we train our embouchure and articulation, we lose nothing and gain a lot!

    The more time I spent with this, the more I started to understand all of the historic literature on playing the natural trumpet. The found its way into my picc playing too.

    There are plenty of opportunities for flow (the Promenade in Pictures at an exhibition for instance), and just as many opprtunities for putting a cap on the end of the note - Baba Yaga from Pictures for instance.

    I discover this type of playing in America too - before the second world war. The ricky-ticky-tick of the film music from the 20s, or some of Herbert Clarkes stuff.

    Yes we need it all, even if some monsters have forgotten it.
     
  9. rbdeli

    rbdeli Mezzo Piano User

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    I explained it poorly. You do use the tongue to cut the air off, but you don't stop blowing. My point is that I don't alter my air supply to articulate or attack the note. At one time, I had to learn to NOT use my air supply to help articulate or attack a note. When tonguing and fingering, say, through the Herbert Clark exercises, the air is moving and the tongue is attacking each note. When I try to alter my air supply to assist attacking the notes, my coordination and sound are hampered.

    Another thing to avoid is the redundnant or stacatto tonguing when it's not called for. That is, saying toot, tat, tut, instead of too, ta or tu. Saying two 't's, will surely slow down your tongue, because you're working twice as hard. Unless, purposely accenting or adding staccato, you want to keep the t's open-ended and just flowing into the next note, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta....

    Years ago, my instructor had me do something new, where I anchored the tip of the tongue behind my bottom teeth (supposedly Herbert Clark did this), then you tongue with the mid section of your tongue just behind the front teeth. Supposedly this opens up your sound and gives you a better, more well-rounded articulation by keeping the tongue out of the mouthpiece. I stopped doing this. I felt that it was hurting my endurance and sound and the middle of the tongue was blocking the stream of air needed to flow straight through the horn. Just thought I'd mention it, because supposedly some of the famous players like Mendez and Clark tongued this way.

    Single tonguing was never a problem for me. If there was one thing I could do better than anything else, it was single tongue.
    By the way, I don't disagree with Rowuk's idea about using the tongue to express the note and music. My point is that you don't sacrifice air in order to do it. In other words, use your tongue, not your air to single tongue.

    Here's something to keep in mind:
    Two different instructors may sound like they are completely contradicting each when in reality, they just don't conceptualize or explain it the same way. This is why some teachers are better for some students and vice versa. Important to realize this, because you won't always respond to everything you're taught. Doesn't mean your teacher is neccessarily giving you bad info.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  10. bagmangood

    bagmangood Forte User

    There is no tongue. Only air.
    (AKA the conglomeration of everything said so far)

    Keeping the air steady will helping tonguing immensely, regardless of which image you use to articulate
     

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