Slight cut/abrasions?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by omgruanoob, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    I play with an upstream embouchure (i believe type 4a?) and I also play in the red of my upper lip. When I play for about 30 minutes or longer, i feel (with my tongue) slight abrasions or cuts, abrasions being a more accurate word. What causes this and what can I do to change this? I just want some thoughts because hopefully soon I will be getting a private teacher. Although he's not a professor or anything he seems knowledgeable enough to help me with my problems and to also help me progress as a trumpet player. Im new to all this so any and all information would be helpful and very much appreciated.
    Thank You
     
  2. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    If you're using a shallow mouthpiece, your lips may be vibrating against the bottom of the cup, and splitting some. That's happened to me before. You're also potentially using too much mouthpiece pressure
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  3. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    What? :-o
     
  4. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Sorry, I was attacked by my internet! ROFL
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark,
    Lips bottoming out on the cup and getting slit open? Man where do you come up with that crap? No way! Do you have any idea how an embouchure works? When you "bottom out" the sound stops - no more vibration - no possible damage.


    omgruanoob
    If in fact your lips are damaged after playing, there are only a couple of sources.
    1) too much pressure when playing
    2) stretching the lips to play higher
    3) medical issues - allergy, dehydration
    4) front teeth are chewing away at the lip because they are not "smooth"

    Without seeing you play live, it is impossible to find the root of this evil. Your teacher could check the first two, a doctor/dentist the rest.

    You mention playing in the red, that is normally not recommended. That is also something your teacher can look at.

    This link shows you how a good working embouchure functions. Depending where the abrasions are, you may be able to figure out what influences that.

    IWK Brass Research
     
  6. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    I never said bottoming out --- the lips can vibrate while making light contact with the mouthpiece (bottom). I know this because I have EXPERIENCED it. I made sure never to do it again =(
     
  7. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    what do you mean by stretching the lips?
    and also, what is it to have a smooth/rough front teeth? I think my teeth are normal since my dentist doesn't say anything but i want to be sure before I know it is/is not the teeth.

    would a video help?
    if so, please ask and i will try my best to get a video
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  8. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    I did not read Mark's comments as "bottoming out". He stated "...your lips may be vibrating against the bottom of the cup, and splitting some". I think this has a different meaning from bottoming out. But then again I am not sure it is abrasions ["I feel (with my tongue) slight abrasions or cuts, abrasions being a more accurate word.... caused by splitting"] that the OP is really experiencing.

    It is truly impossible to know what is happening here without a teacher assessing the situation, but my take on it from reading descriptions is that she may be experiencing a wear pattern. If it is not associated with pain (burning, stinging) or noticeable blood which the OP does not mention, I doubt lips are splitting either. Wear patterns can occur with right or wrong technique. As you continue, the tissue adapts to the changes and this will be less and less of a problem (kind of how the guitar player develops thickened skin at the point where the finger plucks the string. Either way, we do not know if it is a good or bad wear pattern, and a teacher does need to assess this situation.

    The videos are instructional as to how the lips vibrate, but I believe do not address specifically what is happening with the reaction described by the OP.

    I think there is an attempt by all here to try to help the OP, and that is the beauty of TM. I read Mark's comments not as crap, as I believe he does not refer to bottoming out, which I agree with Rowuk, in this unique situation, would lead to complete loss of function. In the spirit of that helpfullness, I would recommend a kinder, gentler commentary that will lead to good... goood... good... vibrations.
     
  9. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    So is it possible that im not doing anything wrong and that im playing correctly?

    and btw im a guy sooo yeah :)
     
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Ya, I meant to change the she to OP on my edits but read over this as I was not sure as to gender.

    But if there is no pain or fatigue experienced, it is less likely that you are doing any damage, just experiencing a reaction of a mucosal surface to change. This is a normal physiological reaction, and would not become pathological unless you are doing something wrong. A key point in Rowuk's response, is there is no way for any of his here to know. Only a teacher, someone who can observe you and hear you in real time, can assess the cause.
     

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