Slight cut/abrasions?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by omgruanoob, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    No. Your condition PROBABLY falls into one, two or all of these three categories:


    1. Insufficient facial muscle flesh mass to cushion the chops against the mouthpiece.

    2. Excessive arm pressure relative to the amount you play/practice.

    3. Over training. ie putting too much of a physical demand upon your chops relative to your existing condition
    .


    The thicker you cushion the mouthpiece with your chops the less the mouthpiece cuts into your lips/embouchure. Think of your lips as a cushion of rubber against the metal mouthpiece. The thicker you make the rubber the more it shields the load.

    You wouldn't drive your car on a flat tire would you? OK so pucker your lips forward a bit and lessen the load. One way of accomplishing this (at least partially) is to pull your mouth corners IN to your eye teeth.

    There are other ways of cushioning the mouthpiece load but I would need a diagram to show it. Experiment a bit and have fun.

    As far as excessive mouthpiece pressure? This is a variable condition between one trumpet player to the next. When I absolutely have to blow a high, loud phrase and near the end of a four hour gig? I just may jam the horn halfway down my throat to get the note. That said i would never practice this way and only rarely do this in a rehearsal. We can withstand some abuse but not day after day after day. Only through learning the BLOW and keeping arm pressure down to MANAGEABLE levels do our chops grow. Overcoming easily that which once seemed impossible.

    Meanwhile listen to Don Ellis until your chops heal. Here

    Good Feelin' - YouTube
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  2. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    if the pain is from practicing too much and the fatigue from playing too much, is this ok?

    i think its the 1st one but i cant be sure. It could be a mixture of the 3 but like you guys are all saying, I have to ask a teacher to help me out. Hopefully he is knowledgeable enough to help me out
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  3. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Pain and fatigue is not OK. This suggests muscle strain which is going toward Local 357's detail. When you feel pain and fatigue it is time to stop playing, but the horn down and walk away. To continue on will lead to muscle break down, and if this continues without being placed in check, scar tissue begins forming.

    If you are experiencing pain and fatigue after 30 minutes, you are doing something wrong, and the etiology to this was nicely detailed by Local 357. Please do yourself one of the biggest favors you can, get an experienced teacher to help you.
     
  4. Pete Anderson

    Pete Anderson Pianissimo User

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    Feb 27, 2008
    How long have you been playing trumpet? For how long has this been happening? Are the cuts on the inside or outside of your lips? Are they on the top, bottom, or both lips? Are they along the area where the mouthpiece touches, or closer to the center of your embouchure?



    I'm not convinced it's anything to worry about yet. I'm a bit worried about playing in the red, though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  5. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    Nov 22, 2011
    I've been playing since 5th grade (im 10th right now). I haven't had a problem until i started messing with embouchures. In 8th grade, I found the upstream embouchure in which i was like... hmmmm, i can go higher. So i kept playing like that
    Before that, i was playing fine but i guess changing it made me think i would somehow get better faster... bad choice? i think so
    I started noticing this this year. It may have happened last year but I didn't know (possibly). Inside is where the abrasions are (cuts is a very big overstatement)
    Only on the top lips. Area in which the mouthpiece touches like on the top of the mouthpiece (just slightly)

    i could maybe try getting a video if you just ask what you want me to do. Maybe play tuning c, slurs, etc.
    anything i can do to help you guys help me. Ultimately im going to have a teacher in maybe a week or two but i want a headstart.
     
  6. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    I'm sure the video will be quite helpful to these experts in order to diagnose you.

    It sounds like it may be all three of the possible ways. I mean, theoretically, you could be overpracticing, and then compensating for tired chops (when they get tired) by using more arm pressure, and because you have thin lips, getting these "abrasions". This is just a hypothesis, but you get my point.

    You mentioned the idea that you would get better faster. In my personal experience (meaning regarding myself) when that idea comes up, and you get so excited that you try to get better more swiftly, you really wear down. Tone, flexiblity, and other things could suffer. Have you noticed any of this?
     
  7. omgruanoob

    omgruanoob New Friend

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    Nov 22, 2011
    I was in 8th grade and i experimented (i believe my embouchure was FINE before and i regret doing it)
    i started moving the mouthpiece and i found the upstream setting. At the time, all i wanted was to go higher (yeah i know...)
    I kept the embouchure and since then i believe the problems started. I didn't notice until this season of band... and im desperately trying to change it
    Ill try to get a video as soon as possible, maybe close up on the embouchure/lips? Can you take videos with webcams :O?
     
  8. Pete Anderson

    Pete Anderson Pianissimo User

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    If the abrasions are on the inside of the lips then that's a bit worrisome. I would guess probably too much pressure which is due to something else you are compensating for.

    Did you know that, actually, the reason the lips are red is that there is no muscle in that part of them? There are are bunch of muscles that act on the lips, but the red part is just blood and tissue (the blood vessels are close to the skin). By placing the rim of the mouthpiece in the red you are kind of making it impossible to use those muscles for trumpet playing, and you end up relying on mouthpiece pressure to compensate. That's my guess at what's going on.

    I would encourage you to not make any changes to your embouchure until you start seeing your teacher. I wouldn't worry too much about the abrasions for now. Without knowing your playing better it's hard to give very good advice - just keep practicing, take it kind of easy and don't hurt yourself, and bring up the abrasions and "playing in the red" issues with your teacher.

    This might be an interesting read for you: Playing in the red
     
  9. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    You can take videos with webcams, if you have the right program. (Just don't ask me which one..)
    I know many on this site would tell you that a change is nothing to take lightly, and you should definitely wait for a teacher before doing that. I agree.
     

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