Slow valve recrudescence

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by bumblebee, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. bumblebee

    bumblebee Fortissimo User

    3,931
    1,823
    Jan 21, 2010
    Great Southern Land
    Slow valves have been discussed before, and from the responses the main things I have seen to check for are

    - obstructions, due to either a mechanical defect or dirt or other foreign matter in the valve
    - playing technique
    - valve oil considerations (too much, too little, wrong chemistry)
    - some combinations of the above which by themselves might not be a problem
    - an overly tight valve tolerance (sometimes resolved by lapping, even using toothpaste etc)

    Anyway, I thought I had my occasional slow valve problems licked by keeping the trumpet as clean as can be, not eating before playing, and using the best matching oil for that trumpet (one of La Tromba T2, Ultra Pure and Hetman's Light #1) but despite that I'm stumped right now with my recent '41 Committee acquisition which has developed a slow 2nd valve return when playing certain passages. This was not a problem before that I noticed, but has developed since getting the old badly flaking lacquer replaced.

    Can anybody point me to the sure-fire technique they use to improve valve response, other than giving it to a tech?

    Thanks,
    --bumblebee
     
  2. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    16,396
    7,510
    Dec 22, 2008
    Virginia
    Clean the ports in the cluster of "fingers". Use acetone on the valves and casing. Might help.
     
  3. BigSwingFace

    BigSwingFace Pianissimo User

    98
    34
    Apr 30, 2013
    Frederick, MD
    Could it be something uncomplicated like a worn-out spring?
     
  4. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    16,396
    7,510
    Dec 22, 2008
    Virginia
    Is it possible that the slide ports got nudged inward?
     
  5. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

    5,010
    1,802
    Mar 6, 2007
    Ithaca NY
    2nd valve problems happen often when the trumpet is laid on the wrong side, or is placed in the case and music laid on top so it presses on the 2nd slide when the case is closed. You notice the issue on the upstroke because the force exerted by the spring is much less than that exerted by your finger when pressing down.

    You can try to lever the slide away from the bell/first slide area by pressing it with your finger while operating it and it may work better. Best bet is to have a tech check it.
     
  6. fuzzyhaze

    fuzzyhaze Mezzo Piano User

    570
    181
    Nov 22, 2009
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne UK
    I have been there too with a B&S Challenger trumpet. I went through every scenario to solve the problem. One thing that occurred to me (and it was a 2nd valve problem also) could it have anything to do with air flow through the horn, some kind of air turbulance thing going on inside the trumpet that then would slow the valve down from returning to it's normal position? Any thoughts on this?
     
  7. bumblebee

    bumblebee Fortissimo User

    3,931
    1,823
    Jan 21, 2010
    Great Southern Land
    Thanks for all your responses so far. I don't believe the problem is the spring since the valve seems fine and fast when I'm just using the 2nd valve. There doesn't seem to be any mechanical damage from the slide ports being pushed into the valve shaft (though it would not need to be very visible to the eye to be a problem I suppose).

    What fuzzyhaze writes about airflow and turbulence, that does seem to be the trigger to cause the valve to slow down, and I have thought about this in the past, considering the dynamic changes in air pressure before and after the valve, and within the valve slide (small as they might be), and trying to think how that might exert some sideways pressure on the valve, pushing it against the casing. But this would be the same for horns where the valve wasn't sticking or slowing so I am sure something can be done.

    My gut feel is that I need to clean it again, and I'll see if there's anything wrong with the valve spring guide (though this seemed fine to me). I'll call the tech who redid the finish too.

    Thanks again,

    --bumblebee
     
  8. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

    5,010
    1,802
    Mar 6, 2007
    Ithaca NY
    Try a different piston in #2. The ports won't line up, but that's OK. Work it w/o playing and see if you notice any hanging up. If you do, on #2, then suspect the cylinder. If the hanging up moves with the piston, then it's the piston. If you can't get it to hang up, well, you are now a little bit older.
     
  9. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

    3,185
    976
    Mar 21, 2006
    Toronto
    Worn pistons hang on the way up.
    Poor hand position also causes this.
    Air turbulence isn't a factor. There isn't enough air moving through a horn with enough force to cause a valve to hang.
     
  10. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

    3,751
    2,152
    Nov 8, 2006
    Greenfield WI
    Might just finally be worn out enough where you can still get a relatively good seal with a fresh oiling but fast passages cause it to deflect enough and shift.

    I'd try a thicker oil like Hetman #3 (Classic). If the valve still moves fast and free, it's probably pretty loose.

    Before I had them rebuilt, I oiled the valves of my grandfather's horn with Hetman tuning slide oil, very thick stuff, and they still moved fast. Extremely worn, they were.

    Tom
     

Share This Page