smile embouchure

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by chet fan, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. Franklin D

    Franklin D Forte User

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    Thomas Gansch, I really love that man
     
  2. B15M

    B15M Forte User

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    Robin,
    You are the man.
     
  3. brian moon

    brian moon Forte User

    You will see Maurice Andre smile in the low to mid range but he stops that garbage when playing high because it is an inferior way to play.

    I love the smile embouchure. It's a major reason that my students have much better range than their peers do.
     
  4. ska

    ska Pianissimo User

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    I am kind of surprised that you have to get involved with so much theory. Music is a feeling, not an exact science, and so are the instruments, you get to know your instrument and adjust your mouth position so it would be comfortable for you to play.

    Since the ~1.5 years I have been playing again ( since 09) I have tried out different embochures, I don't have each embochure type fixed down to the last millimetre, essentially just the sound it makes, I find nothing wrong with smiley type embochures.

    It's like, somebody writes an awful alot of information about what is right and what is wrong in embochures, and you take every word of it for granted.

    Just experiment with the horn, buddy :p
     
  5. brian moon

    brian moon Forte User

    Just watched this:

    YouTube - G. Ph. Telemann - Sonata em Ré M para Trompete

    He does not smile one time while playing this tune. Disagreement, in typical internet fashion, is probably about two different definitions of "smile embouchure".


    Most people play only for their own satisfaction. That's fine but some desire to play at their highest level. It is unlikely that one will be able to do his very best without some degree of understanding what he is doing physically.
     
  6. chet fan

    chet fan Piano User

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    How can you sleep at night? The guy is dying from cancer.

    Besides advices people tend to attend www communities because human beings like to interact with other human beings. Apart from learning people also come here to make friendship with fellow trumpet players. And to talk about trumpets and stuff.

    One of the members from this community is dying. Atleast show some respect. I never knew morris, neither do I personaly know moshe.

    But I do feel for the fellow human being, even more so when he is dying. I never knew him. But he was trumpet player and he loved music, and I am trumpet player and I love music. We have at least two things in common.

    So I do care for him, even though I never knew him.
     
  7. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    Since this is an anonymous forum anyone can say anything about themselves and there is no real good way to verify. I see that some guys live close enough to meet on occasion, but that is probably the exception rather than the rule. Locally I know no one that even reads this forum. I like this forum for the reasons you listed and more. What I don't like is when a poster starts to flamethrow and ruins a decent discussion. We are never going to all agree all the time. If we did what would be the point other than to look at Dale's beauties? When I tick off a poster, I PM them to try and explain, apologize, or take my foot out of my mouth. A member threatening to leave, thus "depriving " us of their presence is childish. If this poster is indeed sick he should be in everyone's prayers. If he is not, then he has accomplished his goal and made this thread about him. Regards.
     
  8. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Charles Collins published a book called Chops that had photographs of many very fine players while playing. 3% max had "picture-perfect" placement and embouchures. If you can play great and wrong at the same time, don't worry!
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Chet Fan,
    I have no trouble sleeping at night. That is because compassion does not involve BS.

    All of us have a musical or writing style that is affected by our personal state. Those characteristics are very apparent to the experienced reader. Moshe/Morris may or may not have a medical situation. That is insignificant when we are discussing embouchures and if one is good or bad. M/Ms style of writing (not only regarding trumpets) is very "fundementalist" and denies other possibilities. This is simply blindness. The human body is not locked into one truth in any respects.

    With little research we can prove that "commonly accepted facts" are not fact at all, rather often half truths accepted and spread by the casual reader or player worshiping his teacher without enough background on how muscles, air, resonance really work.

    I have had enough students with smiles that played very well. I have the first hand experience to back this up. Like with a pucker, the actual VISIBLE part of the muscle motion decreases with increased chop control. IF students have good range, sound and endurance and have been playing this way for 10 years or more (that is the scope of my experience), why mess with success? To make the blind happy?

    Finally, I have no problem with terminal illness. I lost my mother this way. I have had many experiences with people cranky near the end. When they pull the "I/They are sick" card to justify anything, I get mad. It has NOTHING to do with it. I experience this in Germany all the time with the socialist/conservative name calling, idiotic anti semite accusations to put the "opposition" at bay. The only thing that is accomplished we have learned from the boy that called "wolf" until no one believed them anymore.

    Nope, let's keep the thread on track. The truth is what works, not fantasies. None of us has worked with everybody so our scope is limited. Don't argue with reality.
     
  10. tpsiebs

    tpsiebs Piano User

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    Feb 6, 2010
    Randolph, New Jersey
    Here goes, . . .
    I absolutely don't see a smile embouchure in this Andre video. There's a beautiful cushion between the mouthpiece and the teeth. I think the corners are pulled back and not in the "bull dog" position that some would say they MUST be in, in order to not be considered a smile.

    I believe that a smile embouchure pulls the corners back and stretches the lip tissue between the teeth and the mouthpiece: this tension in the X axis controls the frequency. A cushioned embouchure is not a 2 dimensional view of the buzz but a three dimensional view in which we consider the air coming through the lips to exiting through a tube formed by the lips before entry into the mouthpiece. The diameter of this tube is controlled not by the stretching of the lips but by the sphincter-like action of musculature (commonly known as a pucker). This is a 3 dimensional understanding of what's going on as it takes into consideration, not only the diameter of the aperture (in X/Y terms - like an SLR camera), but the thickness to resist pressure (front-to-back Z axis - like a tube or hose) - (log on to Pops McLaughlin's page for some details there).

    Some might argue that Andre's embouchure is a smile type because of the "smiley lines" around the corners and perhaps the same might be said of Clifford Brown's photo from earlier in this thread. I would submit that these lines are present as they represent a means for the player to "shove" the bottom lip up toward the top thus, increasing resistance, reducing aperture size and increasing cushion function.

    Thus the various "methods": Caruso, Stevens, no pressure, Stamp, Chicago School etc. are all differing routes to the same technical end; that is, controlling the aperture. The curl, bulldog, smile, pucker etc represent that one teacher's personal understanding of what works for them.

    In 1975, I attended a Roy Stevens at Indian Hills High School. Lloyd Michaels was there. I was a student of Carmine Caruso at the time. I volunteered to be used as a guinea pig in the master class. I did what he told me to do and played the G above high C about as loud as any 16 year old ought to. All was well until he asked who I was studying with. I was quickly ushered off the stage. True story.

    I believe it is all the same stuff. Those who are successful somehow hook up with a philosophy that resonates with them. The others aren't wrong, just unintelligible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2010

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