some advise on laquer ect. please?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by The Dutch Guy, Nov 29, 2008.

  1. sonicgeo2

    sonicgeo2 Pianissimo User

    Nice one there. ROFL
     
  2. Trumpet guy

    Trumpet guy Forte User

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    I believe Bach's TR300 was made with a one piece bell (or at least my old one was). It's a student horn. Two piece bells are cheaper to make but that doesn't make them any lower quality. It also does not mean that a student horn has to be made with a two piece bell. If I remember correctly, one of rowuk's posts in his "How a trumpet works" thread states the the improved technology nowadays allows manufactures to make two piece bells that sound just as good as one piece bells, if they choose to do so.

    There are few things in this world you can use the all generalization for.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  3. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    The laser-fused,plasma-weld bells are a improvement over what was done before but it is the cheaper [less cost] method of building trumpets, thats why its used on student horns.
     
  4. B15M

    B15M Forte User

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    Not necessarily:

    To get the two piece correct isn't easy. You can slap two pieces together and make a bell. (student horn) You can put two pieces together and make a great bell.

    Bach made a big deal about a one piece bell. I believe it was or is a marketing tool. People started believing that a one piece was better because Bach said so and they made a great trumpet.

    I saw a video of a trumpet factory that had one piece bells and they were stamped. They took the welded piece of brass that was cut kind of like a bell and put it on a form. then the other side of the form went on and stamped a bell. There you go, one piece cheepo bell.

    In reality, the one or two piece bell probably doesn't make a difference in regards to good or bad. Just different.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    If I get red, it is time for some blood pressure pills.............. If I get blue I start breathing again, I am green with envy over Trents chorus capabilities, The best advice for many people ist to just play the black.

    As a child, I used to get a good laquering every once in a while. What I did wrong was not in any gray area. My pink-ee is where it belongs, on the octave key!
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Before we get all belled out, I think it is important to note that superior technology does not necessarily make a better product, it can in the hands of the right artisan increase the piece to piece consistency however.

    Let us also not forget that "standard" trumpets are not braced symmetrically, so a seam is not the only irregularity in the working system.

    I think Monette uses Borax to help fuse the bell together. The Bach single piece bell is one of the major design parameters of the horn. They also harden the bell by tempering it. Monette anneals the bell, thus making it soft.

    There are many roads to great trumpets. We just need to invest enough practice time to make all those fancy design characteristics hearable, feelable, playable.
     
  7. oldsben

    oldsben Pianissimo User

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    Maybe you can consider a rotary trumpet? They are small and look pretty, serious, better quality and more choices. :-)
     
  8. The Dutch Guy

    The Dutch Guy Piano User

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    hey, that might actually be worth concidering!
    thing is: I would buy a strad or someting like that if I had the money, but being a student is kind of expensive, so before I can afford it I have to graduate on university (which is gonna take at least 6 more years), and I want a trumpet now.

    are those rotaries more expensive?
    I wasn't planning on buying a terrible instrument just because I don't have a lot to spend. the jupiter pocket trumpet is pretty decent, and costs (waaaay) under 500 euros. how much do decent rotaries cost? Do you know any brands/models worth checking out? if possible a brand that I can buy in europe / the netherlands.
     
  9. oldsben

    oldsben Pianissimo User

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    I have no experience with them. With 500 euros, you might be able to find one on ebay?
     
  10. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Here is my take on it. The difference in sound depends on how much of anything they put on the brass and if the silver trumpet is silver plated or made out of silver. Silver and Gold plateing do not change the sound much some will say it sounds brighter but only when compared to the same trumpet covered in lacquer.

    The problem with lacquer is that if put on too thick it can deaden the sound but if applied thin is usualy not an issue to a standard trumpet. Now student trumpet's often have lacquer on them so thick that the lacquer is actualy thicker then the brass it has been applied to and I think this is what gives lacquer a bad reputation. On a heavy belled trumpet you will not notice as big of a difference when compareing coating as you will on a light weight trumpet with an extremly light bell.

    You will seldom see a true gold plated trumpet today because it is so expensive only the high end models offer it as a factory option and even then it is rare. What most people call gold is nothing more then plain jain tinted lacquer. The raw brass look is comeing back in fashion after a long abscence mostly due to the Jazz market and the custom high end trumpets that now offer it as an option. The other colors of lacquer are no different it is how thick it is applied that makes it change the sound drasticly.

    So to recap raw brass= natural sound of the material , true gold plated, silver plated, copper plated almost no change in sound output. Lacquer done lightly slightly less bright sounding then the above. Lacquer applied too darn thick no matter what color is going to drasticly change the sound as compared to that same trumpet raw.

    I do not think that the bell being one piece or two piece would be any more of a selling point to me the if the valves are nickle or moneal valves???? I think a combination or design, materials, production methods and a little bit of past reputation but tnot too much all plays a role. In the end you really have to play the thing and see how you sound on it. If I sound great on a Taylor trumpet but you sound better on a Bach Strad which one should you by? I know I would by the one I sounded best on and the heck with one piece or two piece bell or what the valves are made from etc...... In fact some companies offer a variety of valve case's, bell materials, bell construction method's and so on. So what do you do when a company offer's two piece yellow brass bell and once piece yellow brass bell and a variety of bell contours and weights and has two or more valve case's to choose from and braceing designs etc?????? Is one of their $4000 trumpets junk and the other one a gem?

    I think too many people get caught up in the marketing nonsense that is in the instrument industry especialy since it can be hard to hear or play test many of the high end models. It seems like few places stock them and if they do they onely have 1 of each brand well if one company has 100's or variations what is one trumpet int he store going to tell you?Not a lot! I know if I was going to spend $2000 or more on a trumpet I would take some time off work and plan a vaction around my trip to what ever factory I decided to buy from. I would visit play play test a few models and then have them build me what I wanted. If that was not an option I would go with a company that would send me somethign I could play test especialy if they offered a system of interchangable bell's and leadpipes etc......that way I could try 2-3 bell's and 6 or more leadpipe combinations and get close to a custom built trumpet. It is not like you do not already have a good trumpet to play so if you really wanted to have a good time make it a roudtrip adventure!

    Forinstance their are premium trumpets that use all of the following nickle valves, moneal valves, stainless steel valves, one piece bell, two piece bell, yellow brass bell, rose brass brass,red brass bell,bronze bell,copper bell and all of them claim their product is the best and their materials are the best and their valve case's are the best etc........ They can not all be the best so someone by default is lieing. Does the guy witht he best bell or the best valve case or the best ballanced trumpet have the best trumpet???? Hard to say since they and their owners will all claim that their's is the best! So where does that leave us???? Play Test Play Test Play Test and take a friend that is a muscian when you go!
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008

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