Some Tinny Notes

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Mark_Kindy, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    What causes some notes to sound tinnier when played, in contrast to others? Today I found my 2nd line G was somewhat tinny, not as resonant as my third space C; I believe this to be common, I just never really thought about it

    Is this a result of inconsistencies in the instrument, lack in muscular coordination (need for long tones), a combination, or some other factor that I have not thought of?

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    Probably not your fault at all. Possibly the answer is contained in the way the trumpet mates with the mouthpiece. Then again there could be the physical factor. The same way I tend to need to pull way out on my tuning slide for most mouthpieces and someone else (yourself perhaps) can play with the tuning slide near flush to the receiver.

    In fact the first question would be (usually always my first question anyway) "What mouthpiece are you playing"?

    So long as you have the capability to play with what you feel is acceptable resonance in the same "neighborhood" as the second line G? Then I say you are not to blame. This doesn't mean that you can't possibly help the matter. I would look at this condition about the same way as i would look at my own over-all playing. Especially on those extra shallow mouthpieces which i often use.

    On the very shallowest of mouthpieces the tinny "kazoo" like sound is very prevalent. Less resonant an understatement lol. So in order to mitigate some of it i practice tons of lower register loud volume attacks and scales but especially attacks. Something about a heavy bell tone attack w/full tongue penetration between the lips that opens up the sound. After practicing this way regularly for a few weeks and at loud volume I find my tone opening up significantly. Or to put it another way.

    I then can get my medium shallow pieces to sound like medium cup depths.

    Get my very shallow pieces to sound like a semi- shallow medium m/.piece.


    Much of the cure for sound, control, range and endurance comes from learning the basic physics of the blow. A few ideas that while very obvious aren't much discussed. in fact i'm pretty much the only cat who talks about these. Main points:

    1. Lip flesh within the mouthpiece cup stays soft and pliable in all registers.

    2. Facial muscles apply the main muscle support power to the embouchure*. We're talking ALL the facial muscles. bringing in even your forehead. Cheeks from ear to ear. Chin to eyes.

    3. Full tongue penetration at least in practice to remove unnecessary flesh from the m/piece. No lip stretching just avoidance of over-puckering.

    4. Increasing the lung capacity, abdominal muscle strength and HEAVY emphasis on aggressive LOUD playing. To gain confidence.


    Enthusiasm breeds confidence. Vice versa confidence breeds enthusiasm. Aggressive playing increases air support, aids confidence and prevents clams.






    *Too many trumpet players do not know this! They do just the opposite: Smash their m/piece into chops which then get sandwiched and mashed into teeth. Meanwhile the muscles that could help them (cheek, mouth corners, nose and even eyes) remain fallow. Undeveloped and flaccid.

    It takes WORK to develop the facial muscles and perhaps this is what turns trumpet players off from the idea. The funny thing is that while some patience is necessary to develop these outer facial muscles this is actually one of the true "quick fixes" to the whole trumpet game. If someone were to ask me the quickest way to play higher, louder and better i would state that the use of the outer facial muscles being (along with aggressive air support) the true magic bullet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  3. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    or pinching your lips -- because the G is a given (and that means we almost never think about it) and when you do think about it --- "oh my that G just sounded "tinny"" --- just a thought!!!!!!!! that maybe your thinking too much!!!
     
  4. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    I wouldn't guess this actually. Mark's a good player. My inclination is to suggest that this is some kind of oddity of the horn, mouthpiece combination. Or a fluke blow/embouchure condition.

    The goal wouldn't necessarily be to fix the tinny second line G but perhaps to enlarge the notes within the vicinity. Ie: A rising tide lifts all boats. If he finds a way to increase the tonal sonority within the whole lower/middle register he may still not have the fullest spectrum of sound on the second line G. It still may have a less sonorous tone relative to the rest of his register. However by bringing the whole region more open in sound he at least pulls this irritating note into a fuller sound.

    My guess however is that Mark may be over exaggerating the condition. His second line G is probably very acceptable.
     
  5. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    so Mark -- might actually only perceive his G to be "tinny" --- very interesting. Hey Mark, get yourself a 2nd opinion on the "tinny" G. ROFL ROFL ROFL -- but Local, that "tinny" sound can also come from taking a little "air" off of the G ---- I tend to do that as I practice a ppp 20 minute G a lot, and tend to find myself slip back into that mode sometimes (RELAXED too much) ---- Mark probably doesn't fall into that mode, but I am just saying.
     
  6. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Thanks to you both :)
    I'll be sure to get a second opinion on my G, it may just be from my side of the horn, too. It does seem like just that one note, though, so that's odd. I'll let you know what I find!

    And to answer the mouthpiece question, I'm using a Bach 3C. I'm going to test the difference with the ACB 3C, see if that perhaps changes things.
     
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  7. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    HEY -- with a BACH 3C --- all the notes should sound good!!!!!!!!!! -- anyways, back in the high school days -- that is what I was able to use for good sound in all the range I had back then, ---------of course, today (I am old) so I use an entirely different mpc!!!!!!!!! and the other question I had -- was -- where is the G "tinny" ----- in the practice room, the band room ---- or outdoors (yeah, I doubt if the G is "tinny" outdoors) -- I am just saying!!!!!!!
     
  8. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Yes, I expect a fuller tone out of the 3c, which is why I was wondering -- not overly concerned, however.
    I noticed it in the auditorium, of all places. Odd, hm?
     
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  9. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    Mark,

    if you can repeat the experiment, move about while playing the note, a few feet can make a lot of difference in what you hear due to the interaction of the standing waves, this was brought forcefully to me while overhauling our churches sound system some years ago, while playing an A 440 from an audio generator through the system and moving throughout the body of the church the sound would vary from deafening to almost zero as I moved through the standing wave pattern.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Horns with one note out have always been due to leaks.

    I have played horns however where the G for instance is very sharp (this can be explained by the mathematics of the partials - and poor design) - lipping it down makes it sound thin and dull.

    In theory, changing the mouthpiece can change the base intonation of the horn. Single note problems with a mouthpiece seem to be unlikely however. Here some research:

    Examination of the Influence of Different Mouthpiece Forms on the Resonance Behavior of Trumpets
     

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