Starting the TCE set road

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Patric_Bernard, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Brad,
    you make very good and very valid points!
    I think it all comes down to one thing: enough research going in to give you a reasonable chance for success! If you are on the wrong track, all of the hard work in the world will not lead to success, you will only burn the wrong patterns into your head. That is why we need research time BEFORE getting started.
    I have trouble comparing pros and non-pros because too many characteristics do not line up. I think this is also what pops was talking about. If you have steady gigs, your improvements are variations on a theme, not a new start - you just do not have the time or freedom. What you do have is sensitive ears and body that will let you know in short order if success is probable! Survival is something ONLY experience can bring you.
    An amateur (even an advanced one) does not have this stable base and even small changes can produce big (unpredictable) swings in what works. Here we back to my original premise - optimise the odds.
    What is completely missing here is what is really wrong - why completely change everything? We are talking about the single most vulnerable thing about trumpet playing! IF a serious attempt was made to fine tune the present system, without success, IF there is a physiological reason to change, IF the requirement on ones playing change, then PERHAPS this could make sense. Too much pressure trying to play high notes does not mean that your base sucks or needs to be thrown away! It does not mean go back to the drawing board. It means get a handle on what is happening and then develop a plan of action. If one can get away with a small correction, then a lot of pain and strain have been avoided.
    Like I said, these are all guesstimates, but based on what has been posted, I smell trouble. It is not my face, but I can only advise preparation and caution. Getting help early often means much less pain!
     
  2. hubnub

    hubnub Piano User

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    I tend to agree with the others. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Just my 2cents.
     
  3. wilcox96

    wilcox96 Mezzo Piano User

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    Once again...Robin really hits the point. Sometimes "subtle" (not drastic) changes can make the difference. Being conscious of your (the OP) over pressure situation may cause you to be determined to offset it. (and hopefully resulting in success).

    Yep...I understand and agree with caution against doing something drastic. I am, however, okay with learning new things and experimenting. I get the point, though, about doing so when you are an active pro vs when you are wandering around as a hobbyist (or early in development).
     
  4. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    This is a very foolish statement. Lets take a car for example. You drive your car and dont do anything to it until its broken down somewhere or wont start. You never changed your oil, spark plugs, oil/fuel filters, nothing, you just drove it because it wasn't broken.

    Now that its broken, you take it in to be fixed, and it cost a hell of a lot more than what it would have if you had only fixed things before.
     
  5. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    Again Rowuk. I know exactly the road that lies ahead for me. I must compleatly drop everything I know about embochures and start all over with this one. I KNOW WHATS IN STORE. So the next time you try and tell me what I do and do not know... find out what I do and do not know first.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Patric,
    we are on an open internet forum and the content of your posts on TCE does not generate any confidence. My stance is based only on the content that YOU present. Your printed words perfectly replicate some of the catastrophes that I have had to bend back into shape during my teaching career (35 years now). No disrespect to you, just my recommendation to others to emphasize research, preparation and a bit of humility in a much greater degree than you have WRITTEN here. That's right, A BIG WARNING TO ANYONE THINKING ABOUT EMBOUCHURE CHANGE. That is the last resort, not to be taken lightly and with more than an idea of what is now wrong and what is required to fix it.
    I think that you are fooling yourself by saying "I know exactly the road that lies ahead for me". Even a great teacher would not be so bold as to assume that. The good teacher has better odds because of experience.
    I do not assume that you know anything - or everything. You have to live with your results and I do wish you luck. Neither of us has anything to prove.

    The comparison of automobiles to chops is a bit off track. If we don't fix something if it is not broken that just means reinforcing positive habits. The maintenance like replacing sparkplugs and the likes is just our practice routine. Adding 50 horsepower does not have to mean throwing the block, pistons and valves away - sometimes just grinding a bit of this and that to optimise things brings the desired results. If we go too far, the engine ends up on the junk pile. Here is the biggest difference: I can buy a new engine, that option does not exist for chops.

    Patric, we do not need an open debate about what you or I know. You have made your decision, go for it and keep us posted. I would be very happy to congratulate you on a job well done!
     
  7. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    Then give me about a half a year to a year, and I'll show you guys some recordings... I can even do some now with the chop set that I have now before I start my journey for the long haul... I'll do that today when I wake up.
     
  8. Bill McCloskey

    Bill McCloskey Piano User

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    I have a question about this thread. Is your criticism of Patric based on any change to one's embrouchure or just a change to the TCE set? Is it the TCE set itself that you have the most problem with? Would you suggest not to change to TCE even with an instructor?

    Everyone seems so certain that he will damage himself that I can't help but think it is this particular embruchure change that is bringing out the strong reaction.
     
  9. pops

    pops Pianissimo User

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    OK

    I didn't say that he would damage himself. However; There are some potiental problems.


    I get MOST of my students because they TRY embouchure change after embouchure change based on what LOOKS good in forums and they screw themselves up.


    IF you have NEVER taught a successful student then you are much more prone to fail than a teacher who has taught hundreds or thousands. You simply don't have the experience to know what is a problem and what isn't a problem.

    Also the farther away from your old embouchure you try to go the more potential to fail.

    TCE is simply farther away from standard embouchures than any other change would be.

    You want to discuss Nick then great. He didn't have as far to move as the OP does. He was already a great player and teacher. He even got professional help from Jerry.

    I think most people here are just saying that embouchure change (in general) are NOT as easy as most people think they will be. They are taken too lightly and when done without a teacher often do more harm than good.
     
  10. oj

    oj Pianissimo User

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    I fully agree with Pops on this!

    I have been experimenting with TCE since 2002. In 2003 I had lessons with Callet. I have all his books (also his older ones). I also have Civilettis book. I have the new DVD (where the name is changed to "Master Super Chops" - MSC) and I also have a DVD with a Civiletti workshop.

    If you look in the Callet forum on TH, I have tried to raise questions about some of the claims that TCE followers give. One claim, that Callet gave me in 2003, was that Walter Holy used a TCE setting when playing baroque trumpet. This was repudiated by Holy himself! (for more on this, see the Callet Forum). But some of the guys in the Callet Forum refuse to accept this. When I recently got a message from Germany from a person who asked Gunter Beetz if he uses TCE (Beetz says no), they don't accept that either. Some say that Beetz probably don't know how he play. Come on, a trumpet professor (in Mannheim, Germany) who has turned many successful players, dont know how he uses his tongue?

    This is a "guru" attitude that I really dislike (you can also see this in regards to Claude Gordon): "Never question the master!"

    What I said above may seem very negative towards TCE, but it is only meant to question some of the, in my opinion, silly claims. TCE has validity! One example: The "tongue wedge" very much help in sustaining notes on low brass (trombone/tuba). It also make a jump in register ("gear shift") easier.

    Patric, perhaps you could meet a person (close to you) who uses TCE? Then by listening to him and perhaps having some instruction from him, you then can decide if you should follow the "TCE road" or not?

    Ole
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007

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